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Old 01-09-2010, 07:50 AM
Status: "Flush the turd on Nov 3rd" (set 6 days ago)
 
Location: Lost in Montana *recalculating*...
12,597 posts, read 16,258,171 times
Reputation: 13034

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Maybe the state should simply show some teeth when dealing with industries like coal and gas. I can guarantee you most 'men' doing the work don't want to screw up places like that creek.

Like the BS with leftover frac water for gas drilling. The gas company says- "We can't tell you what's in it, but can we have permission to discharge the leftover in that there stream?"

State- "Mmmmmm... Well okaaaayyy.. As long as you say it's safe."

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Old 01-09-2010, 01:12 PM
 
4,714 posts, read 12,160,099 times
Reputation: 1057
ha ha ha...lets see,

Our gov is a coal baron....Rocky's family owns 40% of the coal and 70% of the gas..who else...think Arch the Forgetful has any strings in the fire with shelly?

Nick the man? ha ha on the way out with Mr. Moneyhand...what a great election we see coming in Nov.

I'll bet these crooks have their bags packed for Bahrain and the lear jet gassed up now.
(Where do you think that offshore money is kept?)

MSHA is a joke since R. Stickler was retired...no teeth in the State D Of Mines because nobody will work for the minimum wage..
It took a huge mine explosion at Farmington to bring any safety to this industry and I wonder which big mine will be next.



One thing is serious about incorporating garbage digestors at the gateways to West Virginia...

if the Japanese model is used every thing could and would be recycled..would eliminate our landfills which pose a serious water born health problem in the future and it could curb some crime (as a lot of illegal contamination is still brokered in West Virginia)

Those digestors produce methane and electricity.

And it could make garbage a marketable commodity...take Martinsburg for example...garbage from Maryland and Virginia could be bought to make the huge thing work...


The jobs creation aspect of this endeavor is credible and very workable...

Last edited by David Kennedy; 01-09-2010 at 01:22 PM..
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Old 01-10-2010, 02:55 AM
 
11,944 posts, read 13,182,464 times
Reputation: 2772
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Kennedy View Post
This is crazy...everybody has known for ages that you cannot pump waste products into abandon coal mines..(salt mines, potash and trona mines are another matter because of the non-caving rock strata).
eventually it will come out somewhere.

Shows the lack of intelligence and mining expertise in this generation of coal mine managers(?)

Sounds like consol was making some money from the drilling companies by handling their waste products.

water injection, btw is used to push the methane out of the coal bed prior to mining...I wonder what new hazard this will pose to the miners as they work through the injected part of the seam.

Their job risk is horrendous now because of the synthetic lubricants that they are exposed too..a cancer rate so high that it's not even talked about. If you work on or near a longwall machine, you are going to get cancer...period.

Maybe the Obamunists are right in closing down coal after all...none of it is worth the price of a mans life..
Why should they work 30/40 years to never retire and then face an early death from exposures of breathing conditions and topical poisions?
I never imagined anyone would pump liquid waste, but it looks like an exercise on paper went horribly wrong. Wild guess- on paper that mine was supposed to be a brita filter (activated charcoal )?

Synthetic lubricants- it's like dejavu all over again! Our old rectifiers-- PCB's by any other name reeks just the same. Carcinogens often aren't far from mutagens, and let that 'family man' wanting a better life for his children think again.

While I was away I happened to watch that history channel program about black blizzards. Gov't fed shortsighted ignorance en masse, and rural citizens mismanaging the land brought harm to untold millions as well as themselves. This last century under our belt, we need to be accountable for our poisons. All poisons can be managed only when we acknowledge them honestly. That honesty will remain absent when white collar criminals sponsor legislation.

The only thing holding me back from tort reform support is the tangible evil going on in commerce making crime very profitable even when caught (in this example, environmental crimes). Toothless... as toothless as osha, epa, et al. They were deliberately made toothless. How else do you expect a judge pay for his summer home? Perhaps if white collar crimes had the death penalty or chinese prison as consequence... I digress.

Cap and trade is punitive nonsense that fixes nothing. Coal as resource can't be ignored, but it needs to be managed better until other resources exceed the cost benefit standard coal has delivered all along. Miners should have a fair shot at staying healthy by having a higher priority on air quality. Ex. Forced air suits are not beyond our ability to economically provide. Coal managers scrimping on safety to 'earn' their bonus need a smack upside. When they claim they can't afford to do business safely, then they can't afford to be in business. No excuses. I strongly disagree with obama in practice, but not entirely in theory.
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Old 01-10-2010, 06:00 AM
 
4,714 posts, read 12,160,099 times
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Actually, the miners.....Happy New Year, btw HBL...wear an air filtration helmet on the Longwall Operations...

It's the skin contact with those airbourne synthetic lubricants that is the problem and your suggestion of a moon-suit would certainly be the answer.

The hydraulic hoses that move the jacks under the steel canopy often rupture and are constantly being observed for wear and replaced.
They quick-couple with almost instant fastners but they are replaced while the coal is continously mined...

The men are exposed to the oil mist as the ventilation air is swept over them.
A cloud of oil poision in the black dust tornado.
Air velocity on the Longwall Face is about 60 to 100 cu ft per minute ( I would estimate 35 to 50 miles per hour)

It in reality does nothing to prevent exposue...at the end of the working shift, the miners are covered from head to toe with a black oily film..coal dust and synthetic oil.

And In My Opinion...they realize these workplace health hazards and trade their health for the paycheck...

Now they will pay up to $8,000 per year for their health benefits because they fit into the Cadillac Model...as our so called government calls it...

What a reverse of morals...To trade off ones wages for health care and then be taxed for it because you do not fit the Welfare Model...

And yes, they are all good Democrats too...
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Old 01-10-2010, 08:53 AM
Status: "Flush the turd on Nov 3rd" (set 6 days ago)
 
Location: Lost in Montana *recalculating*...
12,597 posts, read 16,258,171 times
Reputation: 13034
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Kennedy View Post
Now they will pay up to $8,000 per year for their health benefits because they fit into the Cadillac Model...as our so called government calls it...

What a reverse of morals...To trade off ones wages for health care and then be taxed for it because you do not fit the Welfare Model...

And yes, they are all good Democrats too...
The way I understand it Baucus' proposal was made to appease 'bipartisanship', in which the Republicans on the committee were also involved.

Blogs @ The Charleston Gazette - » Health care and coal miners
Quote:
It’s important to keep in mind that, while Baucus is a Democrat, his proposed bill was worked out to try to appease Republicans, so that the legislation would be deemed “bipartisan,” a magic buzzword that apparently makes legislation better — regardless of what’s really in it.
This is one case where Rockefeller is quite unhappy and wants this nixed.

Give credit (and blame) where it is due.
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Old 01-10-2010, 11:39 AM
 
4,714 posts, read 12,160,099 times
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Out of 40 Repubs...39 voted against the bill and one did not vote...there were no republicans voting for it at all...

It was passed by 60 Demos only... how is this called bipartisn?

....unless we are invoking the definition of 'Is here.

Rocky said he was unhappy (lol) but voted for it too...so sorry...the miners will remember this...

Why is it important?...takes away $8,000 per year from the retirees...the working stiffs can possibly get around it with deductions...I hope they can.
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Old 01-10-2010, 07:32 PM
Status: "Flush the turd on Nov 3rd" (set 6 days ago)
 
Location: Lost in Montana *recalculating*...
12,597 posts, read 16,258,171 times
Reputation: 13034
It was a committee Dave but the bill was DOA, just as is the case with everything that goes to the floor. They had their input, just as was reported. It just goes to show that they will bolster for it, and still kill it. A very typical conservative move these days. The way this health 'bill' has been sliced and diced it will take years to get it right, and the insurance companies are very, very thankful for it.

Move forward but don't move. Which is why Congress sucks monkey butt.
http://www.news-medical.net/news/200...n-support.aspx

Quote:
Roll Call: "Finance Republicans, for their part, are working on a strategy for next week's markup, according to a GOP source. Baucus said the committee would take up the bill beginning on Sept. 22. The three Republicans in the gang of six — (Grassley) and Sens. Mike Enzi (Wyo.) and Olympia Snowe (Maine) — are not participating in those strategy sessions, signaling a commitment to the bipartisan talks even though they are not expected to support Baucus' bill when it is introduced today" (Drucker, 9/16).
BFD- politics as usual. The 'Republicans' are a do nothing lot, especially with healthcare. What's new.. The lack of their vote signals NOTHING other than sheer politics when they were involved in the committee itself.

Last edited by Threerun; 01-10-2010 at 07:53 PM..
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Old 01-10-2010, 11:36 PM
 
4,714 posts, read 12,160,099 times
Reputation: 1057
You have described it perfectly...'Move forward, but don't move.

Got my eye on next Tuesday...Massachusettes will be sending a message.
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Old 01-11-2010, 03:03 PM
 
11,944 posts, read 13,182,464 times
Reputation: 2772
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Kennedy View Post
Actually, the miners.....Happy New Year, btw HBL...wear an air filtration helmet on the Longwall Operations...

It's the skin contact with those airbourne synthetic lubricants that is the problem and your suggestion of a moon-suit would certainly be the answer.

The hydraulic hoses that move the jacks under the steel canopy often rupture and are constantly being observed for wear and replaced.
They quick-couple with almost instant fastners but they are replaced while the coal is continously mined...

The men are exposed to the oil mist as the ventilation air is swept over them.
A cloud of oil poision in the black dust tornado.
Air velocity on the Longwall Face is about 60 to 100 cu ft per minute ( I would estimate 35 to 50 miles per hour)

It in reality does nothing to prevent exposue...at the end of the working shift, the miners are covered from head to toe with a black oily film..coal dust and synthetic oil.

And In My Opinion...they realize these workplace health hazards and trade their health for the paycheck...

Now they will pay up to $8,000 per year for their health benefits because they fit into the Cadillac Model...as our so called government calls it...

What a reverse of morals...To trade off ones wages for health care and then be taxed for it because you do not fit the Welfare Model...

And yes, they are all good Democrats too...
I know very little about mining, but I am well versed in confined space/ hazwoper certs because I was required to carry them throughout my career in oil, and partially in CG as environmental cops.

Outside looking in on your description of operations I see a fundamental lack of administrative controls and you are correct in attributing fault to mgmt. When designing standard operating procedures (SOP's) this is the primary muscle, the rest compensate, often at greater repetitive cost, to what is lacking in administrative controls. Your example, tyvec is an excellent protective barrier, but I highly doubt that sustained 50 mph bombarding the suit with modern chemistry can protect the crew for long. The litmus test for my managerial set was-- would you put your own wives and children in this situation? Is it still sufficient in your mind? When the answer was no, we went back to the drawing board.

Would I be tasked with solving this problem, I'd fixate on what's causing this oil to become airborne in the first place and task engineering with the solution. This loss also represents red ink in cost of doing biz, lack of environmental hygiene, in addition to profound health threats. Any other industry would insist it's unacceptable with liability being the most severe consequence. If I've misunderstood the purpose of this oil being airborne as requirement for operations, the only solution left an administrator is remote controlled machinery and establishing a no-man zone during the operations.

Again, my limited exposure to mining operations... I met an old timer I've mentioned before in another thread. He was coaxed out of retirement by big coal needing qualified/ experienced men for operations these past few years. His medical evaluation upon retirement came in the form of a legal hearing with disability board members and company lawyers. His healthcare in perpetuity was a deal hammered out between the corporation he vested his life in and his government. Health care, for him (maybe not for all), was a responsibility passed onto the government. Whatever cadillac plan is/was in effect reverted to government program.

Under banner of cost shifting, you're paying for it one way or another. When consequence for operations is 'solved' by coal industry, they have nothing but threads of conscience to hold them to doing the right thing. Among the ambitious, conscience is the first collateral damage in long series.
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Old 01-11-2010, 10:15 PM
 
4,714 posts, read 12,160,099 times
Reputation: 1057
HBL,

Can you imagine a typewriter carriage 1,500' wide, 9' high with a 60 ton rotary drum pac-man taking bites out of the blackness as it moves along laterally at about 2 MPH.

The coal dust is swept away by air velocity and dampened by water misting sprays.

For the most part the operators move ahead of the cutting drum and stay out of the horrendous dust cloud.

From time to time huge hydraulic hoses rupture.
Their pressure is unimaginable...thousands of pounds and they can cut.
They can emit hundreds of gallons of cancer causing fire proof lubricants into the air in minutes.

The air velocity makes those lubricants airborn in seconds...and men work in that dust and mist to repair them as the machine cuts the coal.

That machine continuosly cuts coal 24 hours per day, 6 days a week, with the exception of Sunday.

A steady non-stop river of coal.
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