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Old 04-05-2011, 09:55 AM
 
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It would be clearly against the law for charters to disciminate against their applicants since charters are publicly funded. I'm not sure if the bigger ones like HCZ would be able to get away with it. Private schools are a different matter. And as I mentioned, charters could potentially turn out to be just as expensive to run as many suburban public schools - violin lessons, fitness classes outside of the normal PE, orchestras and bands, etc.
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Old 04-05-2011, 10:15 AM
 
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Your right, nobody does anything outside the law.
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Old 04-05-2011, 10:30 AM
 
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Breaking the law would be more of the exception rather than the rule. This is the case for the largest charters like HCZ and KIPP who are big enough to have any meaningful impact on the overall population.
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Old 04-05-2011, 10:40 AM
 
258 posts, read 905,930 times
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Originally Posted by lan3 View Post
Your right, nobody does anything outside the law.
I have a friend whose aunt works for Kipp and she said she could get her a spot there. It hasn't happened yet so maybe it won't and I am sure most are legit but there many that are not legitimate lotteries. Manhattan is so competitive that I tend to be cynical. I have seen rules broken in the choice schools that shocked me. Some things have been changing to level the playing field but many things that go on are awful.
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Old 04-05-2011, 10:52 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jjinla View Post
There is also a lot of debate as to how much class size truly impacts the quality of the education, as class sizes in most of Asia and other developed countries are far bigger than ours. The quality of the teacher is far more significant, and IMO it is a joke in the US that a teacher without any advanced training in a particular subject can teach it in the 1st place.
You don't have to go to Asia to find a similar model. NY Catholic schools use the same approach also, and it isn't a surpirse that their cost per pupil is way lower than suburban public schools. I posted earlier that Chaminade's spending per pupil is lower than Greeley's and Yorktown's.

Catholic schools are able to balance cost and quality by keeping the curriculum relatively simple (focus on reading, writing, math, science) but doing it well, giving challenging exams and quizzes, encouraging listening and note-taking in class and imposing discipline - disipline to impose detention for students who break the rules and to give low grades to those who do not study hard enough. Unfortunately, many people will find this hard to accept. You saw how one such poster in this thread cringed at the thought of using detention to discipline kids.
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Old 04-05-2011, 07:12 PM
 
Location: Yorktown Heights NY
1,316 posts, read 5,182,415 times
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Wow, skip the site for a day and look what happens when a thread is popular. I don't even see my last comment.

Why is it that just because everyone attended school they think that they know how to teach and run not just a school but an entire system? I've been in a hospital but I wouldn't dream of telling anyone how to run one. I live in a house, but I wouldn't tell an engineer how to build one. Just sayin...

None of these comments are on the topic of taxes, but I can't help respond to some of the sillier comments on this page: First off, there is no "debate" among educators as to the importance of small class size--everyone agrees that it is a critical factor. Certainly, it is much less important than teacher quality, and it is not a cure-all (a bad teacher in a small class will do better than she would in a big one, but not as good as a great teacher in a bigger class), but it is one of the most critical factors in providing a quality education. (And comparing an American class to one in Japan, for example, is absurd.)

I agree that the lack of training required of teachers in most of America is pathetic--but just because you're trained in a particular subject doesn't mean that you know how to teach it. What teachers need is training in teaching.

As for the idea that Catholic schools are a model, I have to say I've never heard that one before. I'm sure there are loads of exceptions, but as a rule they practice a rote drill approach that is good at getting kids to remember facts long enough to pass a test but that doesn't actually teach any skills. If that is your idea of quality education, you should indeed be able to provide it for a lot less money--but God help us.

It scares me that all of us have the right to vote for our school budgets. But we do--at least for now. Assuming we still have that right come voting time, I hope everyone takes the time to look carefully at their district's budget to see where the money is going.
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Old 04-05-2011, 09:58 PM
 
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The fact that you weren't a teacher or a principal didn't prevent you from weighing in in this thread, especially when it came to things you agreed with. So let's throw away all pretenses of questioning one another's qualifications and just focus on the merits of the argument.

People who say that Catholic schools practice a rote drill approach do not know what they speak of. If that were absolutely true, then how do Chaminade, Kellenberg, Sacred Heart LI, Regis and Xavier manage to produce so many excellent graduates year-in-year-out? Sorry to bring this up, but how does Yorktown HS's Ivy League and other selective college acceptance rate compare to that of Regis?

http://www.regis-nyc.org/section/?ID=121

But it's true that Catholic schools put a greater emphasis on traditional learning methods such as note-taking, practice problem-solving with lots of scratch paper (no Singapore and Everyday Math there), and a ton of essay and research paper writing. It's been proven to be an excellent way to learn and it doesn't cost as much on the dime.
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Old 04-06-2011, 05:38 AM
 
Location: Yorktown Heights NY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest_Hills_Daddy View Post
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The fact that you weren't a teacher or a principal didn't prevent you from weighing in in this thread, especially when it came to things you agreed with. So let's throw away all pretenses of questioning one another's qualifications and just focus on the merits of the argument.

People who say that Catholic schools practice a rote drill approach do not know what they speak of. If that were absolutely true, then how do Chaminade, Kellenberg, Sacred Heart LI, Regis and Xavier manage to produce so many excellent graduates year-in-year-out? Sorry to bring this up, but how does Yorktown HS's Ivy League and other selective college acceptance rate compare to that of Regis?

Regis High School - College Profile

But it's true that Catholic schools put a greater emphasis on traditional learning methods such as note-taking, practice problem-solving with lots of scratch paper (no Singapore and Everyday Math there), and a ton of essay and research paper writing. It's been proven to be an excellent way to learn and it doesn't cost as much on the dime.
No, I'm not a teacher or principal but I was a teacher, have a Masters in Education, and have spent my career in a related field (educational publishing) in which I work closely with schools, am in regular contact with the top education specialists in the country, go to all the major conferences, and in general need to stay on top of all the trends and issues in education (both pedagogical and practical). So I do feel somewhat qualified to share a thought or two.

The fact that a school has some successful graduates hardly means that it is a model of educational practices. As I said above, as a rule the methods practiced by Catholic schools are the poorest practices out there and not what you want schools to follow. I'm sure you can find some exceptions.
For the record, Yorktown High's list of Ivy League acceptances is quite good--however, that is a testament to the school's guidance staff and the students' scores, not a sign of the overall quality of education at the school. Looking at a schools college acceptances doesn't tell you anything about the education being provided.
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Old 04-06-2011, 07:58 AM
 
7,296 posts, read 11,834,803 times
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"Somewhat" is a loose term. By that definition, everyone is qualified to weigh in as long as they are "somewhat qualified". It's not bad to weigh in, as long as you can back it up with facts and not question other people's qualifications for the sake of supressing discussion.

And yes, having a track record of producing successful, academically accomplished graduates is a sign of good quality education unless you don't believe in empirical evidence. What other empirical evidence do you need? National debating championships? NY math league top placements? Catholic schools have done it, and they cost less. Just accept this as truth.

And your perception of Catholic school's teaching methods is not true so you may want to check your sources. It is not all about memorizing facts, unless you have a problem with note-taking and practicing math problems at the end of each chapter. They are required to write extensive analytical research reports (five a year in Chaminade) over and above reports for science projects, take oral exams, socratic seminars, perform field projects etc. Outside of class, students join debating teams, science fairs and olympiads and math contests. I have first hand knowledge of this but anyone can easily verify this in these schools' websites. So you can strike out any notion that their curricula is all about memorizing facts and taking easy standardized tests. Far from it.

If anything, Catholic schools do put a great emphasis on quizzes and exams (not standardized tests but ones designed by the faculty), as well as listening and taking down notes. But that's their way of making sure that students are studying at home. Now why would anyone serious about learning have a problem with that?
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Old 04-06-2011, 09:18 AM
 
Location: Yorktown Heights NY
1,316 posts, read 5,182,415 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest_Hills_Daddy View Post
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...Just accept this as truth.
Who is trying to suppress discussion?

Until a few years ago my company made the text books used by many Catholic schools and I've been involved in developing them, so I do feel familiar with the curriculum and techniques used in Catholic schools. I wouldn't have said anything about them otherwise. And all schools in this day and age use regular quizzes and tests to measure how students are doing and what level of differentiated instruction they need. That is standard proceedure pretty much across the board. How successful a tool that is depends on the tests themselves--most simply measure fact retention, as opposed to real understanding of concepts.

I agree that "producing successful, academically accomplished graduates" is a sign of a good education system--but that is not indicated by college acceptance. College acceptance is a sign of SAT scores--which has nothing to do with academic ability or education level--, the strength of the guidance department, the financial wherewithal of the students families, the ethnic/racial background of the students, and other factors unrelated to educational quality. How students actually do in college and beyond tells you something about the education they recieved in high school, buth that is hard to quantify.
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