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There are wonderful catholic schools but nobody considers Catholic schools to be shining examples of education. Are some of them great, yes but overall they are not considered stellar.
Nobody, huh? Well I do and many others like me do. Sorry, but I couldn't disagree more with your post. As a whole, the average Catholic school prepares all students far better than the average public school, and does so on a far smaller budget. People can pretend that this is because they emphasize "by rote" education, or pretend that Regis is the only good Catholic school, but they are only kidding themselves.
There are MANY great Catholic grammar schools and high schools, and they are available for a fraction of the cost of the annual property taxes that the "elite public school" crowd will pay. But you are free to have your own opinion, as am I. And I am definitely not going to pay $30K in taxes so my kid could get an education equivalent to (and perhaps worse than) what my kid can get in Catholic school.
I should not have said nobody and I did not mean to insult catholic schools. My husband is a very successful product of a Catholic school education. I know tons of parents that love Catholic schools. I was referring to the educational community. I just think the finances & successes can not be compared because they throw out unruly kids, they do not need to educate kids with special needs, etc. I have three children. One is gifted and was reading at two, one has a mild speech delay and one is autistic. My kids can all go to the same public school in Pleasantville and that would not be possible with Catholic schools or choice schools in the city. The public school system has to pay to meet children's special needs even children with disabilities. Public schools pay for these services for kids that go to catholic schools as well so of course that costs more money than the average catholic school. If public schools could pick kids and not pay for kids with handicaps taxes would be cheaper. That was my point. People in education mostly don't look at the Catholic school model because it is not applicable to schools that have to educate an entire population.
That's the reason why education in the suburbs has become expensive - people in education (in the suburbs) don't look at the Catholic school keep.
Realistically, children with special needs do not account for the high costs of suburban schools. Obviously, majority of kids in P-ville, Ardsley, Chappaqua and Yorktown are not autistic so it's not right to use them as a reason to justify high taxes.
You need to significantly trim down costs in line items that are vaguely related to academics like expensive sports teams, orchestras, physical plant, self confidence/esteem seminars, leadership courses and so on. Keep academics to reading, writing, math and science. At least for the normal kids (who account for the majority), expect them to listen and take copious notes, read independently, constantly write research papers and do lots of practice with math formulas and word problems (ditch singapore and everyday math, for example). And teachers shouldn't be afraid to give "Ds" and "Fs" to kids who don't study hard enough for whatever reason. Forced ranking is a reality in life.
FH Dad- I truly appreciate your perspective and I think Catholic school seems perfect to you because you have different values that most of Westchester who would rather pay for programs than lose them. I think your feelings are quite legitimate but I still think it would be unfair to be forced to have a tax cap on things that we as citizens choose to pay for. If I didn't value the many services you want cut, I would have stayed in the city and paid for Catholic school as many of my friends have done. I would rather pay for the many programs that you feel are unnecessary and if I stayed in the city I would have paid for them after school. It should be the choice of the voters.
It was never an issue of values or preferences. I have always granted that these high tax neighborhoods have kept programs because they preferred these programs.
I am only saying that you can have a good school with good - if not better - academics than the ones you have now while spending much less. If you spend less, you can not only deal with a tax cap, you could even get a big tax cut all while preserving/improving quality.
It is not right to make false arguments that such and such alternative system focuses on rote drill, that it only keeps very bright students or that most of its teachers don't have degrees. And if people still want to keep paying more for less even if they know the truth, then so be it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lan3
I would have paid for them after school. It should be the choice of the voters.
Which isn't such a bad idea. There are many suburban parents who don't want to pay for non academic programs that their kids don't use anyway. How do you think Cuomo got his voter mandate for the tax cap?
It is not right to make false arguments that such and such alternative system focuses on rote drill, that it only keeps very bright students or that most of its teachers don't have degrees. And if people still want to keep paying more for less even if they know the truth, then so be it.
Are those false arguments? I have a limited knowledge of Catholic schools but I have had many kids walk into my public school thrown out of Catholic school for behavior or academics. I am pretty sure the kids have to take a test to determine which Catholic high schools that they get into. Am I incorrect? I am certainly not an expert but that is my understanding. Catholic school teachers also have less degrees ( I have seen awful teachers with many degrees). I think where we are misunderstanding each other is that I am not arguing that these things make Catholic schools worse. I am not saying that at all. I am just saying that it makes Catholic schools cheaper. People without degrees make less. Kids with academic needs cost more to educate. If you teach rote learning rather than group learning, class sizes can be bigger. All of these factors make Catholic schools spend less per pupil.
Which isn't such a bad idea. There are many suburban parents who don't want to pay for non academic programs that their kids don't use anyway. How do you think Cuomo got his voter mandate for the tax cap?
I agree with you there too. I am sure everyone including myself wants to pay less but when puts come to shove, the town voters tend to increase taxes to pay for programs because we want to. I just feel that we should be able to pay for programs with our taxes if we vote to do so.
Many people mentioned Fairfax county. Westchester Magazine had compared the counties in the following article (see the link below). While it shows the teachers in Fairfax cost less due to lower teachers salaries and benefits, it also shows that one of the biggest differences is the administrative costs associated with having muliple school districts versus Fairfax's solo school district. A quote from the article: "Fairfax County has one school district. Westchester has 40. They pay one superintendent of schools, we pay 40 of them—as well as at least 40 assistant superintendents, system-wide technology directors, purchasing agents, transportation directors, and other central office staffers with the attendant overhead." The rest of the article can be found at: Why Are Our Taxes So #%*! High? - Westchester Magazine - June 2010 - Westchester, NY
Are those false arguments? I have a limited knowledge of Catholic schools but I have had many kids walk into my public school thrown out of Catholic school for behavior or academics. I am pretty sure the kids have to take a test to determine which Catholic high schools that they get into. Am I incorrect? I am certainly not an expert but that is my understanding. Catholic school teachers also have less degrees ( I have seen awful teachers with many degrees). I think where we are misunderstanding each other is that I am not arguing that these things make Catholic schools worse. I am not saying that at all. I am just saying that it makes Catholic schools cheaper. People without degrees make less. Kids with academic needs cost more to educate. If you teach rote learning rather than group learning, class sizes can be bigger. All of these factors make Catholic schools spend less per pupil.
Of course you have to take tests. That's how they know what level to place you. It doesn't mean all Catholic schools choose only the best and brightest, which is completely untrue. Maybe Regis and Xavier, but certainly not all. Other schools like Molloy are more diverse in terms of academic abilities. The entrance tests are meant to help, not hinder.
No, most teachers in average-level NYC Catholic schools have masters degrees while those who don't are expected to work towards earning one. Teachers with masters degrees are used as a feature to attract students.
And once again, Catholic schools do not teach all rote. In some subjects, they do. But like what I and New Yawker already stated many times in this thread, they also ask students to dialogue in class, turn in analytic research papers, join math and science contests (where they win), debate, learn foreign languages, read great books and the works of philosophers etc. Some subjects are taught in rote, but that is also true for suburban public schools. It's still important for students to know their facts and to get used to not being spoon fed.
In terms of the number of students per class, it's not a lot different from suburban public schools. NYC Catholic schools keep around 25 students per class. Some Westchester Catholic schools have less - around 19.
That's part of the problem. Many people don't know about alternative systems of education and already they've formed strong negative opinions about it. Hopefully more people will take a serious look at this and see what they can learn and apply to their own school districts.
Nobody, huh? Well I do and many others like me do. Sorry, but I couldn't disagree more with your post. As a whole, the average Catholic school prepares all students far better than the average public school, and does so on a far smaller budget. People can pretend that this is because they emphasize "by rote" education, or pretend that Regis is the only good Catholic school, but they are only kidding themselves.
There are MANY great Catholic grammar schools and high schools, and they are available for a fraction of the cost of the annual property taxes that the "elite public school" crowd will pay. But you are free to have your own opinion, as am I. And I am definitely not going to pay $30K in taxes so my kid could get an education equivalent to (and perhaps worse than) what my kid can get in Catholic school.
Excuse my lack of a better term....But that my friend is what people call......Malarkey!!
So what your telling me is that you would rather pay let say...10,000 dollars in taxes, (a little more than half of that pays for PUBLIC SCHOOL in your city) and then pay lets say.... what.... 600 a month (on the low end) for your child to goto catholic school. I understand if you are highly enthusiastic about your child(rens) religious education, but add what also the Church is going to ask you for on a weekly basis, which I respect btw, So lets do the MATH....6,000tax + 600 x 10 Catholic school = 12,000.00 a year for your child to get an education (unless you dont own your home), from teachers (not to say Catholic school teachers aren't any good because I know alot good catholic school teachers) but who aren't required to have let alone get, a MASTERS in Education and be certified.
OK lets look at the another piece......6000 a year for your childs education from a catholic school.... MORE MATH....6000 x 25 (kids per classroom) x 9 (k thru 8, being there only 1 class per grade) = 1.3 million dollars a year revenue (again this was the low end of private education). Catholic schools also pay there teachers Peanuts at best.
Now you explain to me, how your child will get (what did you say) the same, if not worse education, going to public school ANNNDDD you paying almost double for your child to learn.
Hmmmmm and that just for grammer school!!!!! Another nugget for ya......i.e. Iona Prep I believe is $13,600. per year for High School.
His point was that it costs Catholic schools less to educate each kid versus public schools. Let's say you're right and Iona charges $13.6K/year in tuition. Many Westchester school districts spend more than $25K/year and rising, so there's obviously lots of room to cut costs.
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