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Old 06-04-2012, 06:45 PM
 
15 posts, read 47,263 times
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so I hear time and again how good west. schools are. what in your opinion makes a school excellent? Not chappaqua, scarsdale, bronxville, we cant afford the rents there. So what makes your kid's school great? Do they have enrichments like music, dance,puppetry? Do they have a full gym, nice outdoor play space and library? what technology is available to the kids? Do they do a lot of art, any independent study? Do they foster critical and crative thinking? You can see some things I am looking for..I do not want a high pressure test obsessed school, little kids need to have fun at school too, not just do busy work. Do you have a nice community of families and involved parents? thanks for any info! Id love specifics about any school you like!
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Old 06-04-2012, 09:14 PM
 
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Well here's my two cents, as a product of K-12 in a "good" Northern Westchester school. When I say Westchester in the following paragraphs, this only applies to to the wealthier, sleepier towns with reputations for good schools, and not Yonkers, Mount Vernon, New Rochelle, Peekskill or White Plains. I know less about the good school systems south of 287, but I get the vibe that those places are more old money/country clubby and the northern areas have a more hippie/artistic/outdoorsy/horse people vibe.

I did not enjoy my schooling experience very much at all, but what I think at the root of what people are paying for is a community culture that encourages academic and professional achievement and discourages hard drug use, pregnancy, gang membership and other social ills. All the stuff about class size and art and independent study and play areas and other things that parents value pale in comparison to the value of going to a place where becoming a drug dealer would be downright embarrassing to everyone involved and would result in the kid in question being ostracized from the community at large. I'm not talking about someone who is selling a quarter of an ounce of weed to his buddies as a favor, but anything harder or dealing as a real profit motivated business would be viewed negatively. Same thing for getting pregnant or not going to college. In my school the baseline for not being embarrassed about your academic achievement was getting > 90 on your yearly average (regardless of whether you took advanced classes or not). For colleges, the minimum socially acceptable college was the better SUNY schools, such as Binghamton and Buffalo. Going to WCC or somewhere else local was seen as an indication of failure. There is of course going to be a small minority of students who aren't going to cut it in any school, but even amongst that crowd dropping out was seen as a drastic and reckless measure, which judging by statistics, is not the view many students take in the NYC schools.

When I was in elementary school we had some kids who were forced to have their class in a trailer on the property, which was cramped and required going outside to get anywhere else in the school and I guarantee that didn't make a difference in the long term value of their schooling. In a community where 90% of the families are hardworking, successful and educated people who have worked hard to secure their lifestyle and care deeply about their children's future, you'd have to affirmatively work to build a school system that will prevent their children from succeeding at life. Parents in Westchester will devote lots of time to their children's hobbies, help their child's friends secure jobs and internships, and generally use their knowledge, time, money and connections to better the lives of their children, whether it be teaching kids skills not covered in school, securing a lawyer for an alcohol related arrest or hiring a private tutor for SAT prep. Just by the fact that you are posting this here, and are showing deep concern about the educational environment for your children means you'd fit into the club. There are whole swaths of the state where making the school district a key point in relocation is either viewed as not necessary or a luxury that cannot be afforded.

Another big plus of the Westchester schools (I'm sure there are exceptions to the following, but as a generalization this is true) is that school is less prison like than it is in other parts of NY and the country. Zero-tolerance policies are not popular, open campus policies (contingent on academic performance) for high schoolers are common, metal detectors and regular locker searches unheard of, dress codes are barebones, suspensions reserved for extreme conduct and micromanaging student behavior with hall passes and strict adhesion to the bells is viewed as arcane. The laxness and freedom is rarely abused, and makes for a positive and comfortable environment in the schools. There are just less opportunities for temptation and failure in these communities, which is probably why such a laid back approach doesn't lead to anarchy.

All of that being said, there will likely be crappy teachers, out of touch administrators, programs that look good on paper to parents, but have no value (we had a grant funded arts program that was run by non-teachers who were incapable of working with children, that ended up being a complete waste of everything) and other frustrations and injustices. Nothing is going to be perfect, and your individual experience might even be negative, but at the end of the day, you'll be coming out way ahead of people in lesser school districts just by the nature of the community you will be living in.

Good luck on your search, and don't stress too much. Everyone is going to tell you that their school is better than the others because of some trait that appeals to white, upper middle class folks, say Singapore Math or high per pupil spending, but if your goal is to have a child who is going to be a smart, self-sufficient, college educated, professionally and financially successful individual, the individual nuances of each district don't matter much. Now if you think its a perfectly good thing if your child wants to become a mechanic or some other blue collar, lower paying, get your hands dirty type profession, you will be potentially harming your child by moving somewhere where the guidance department automatically assumes that a four year college is the best option for all students who aren't abject academic failures.

Last edited by mdm1; 06-04-2012 at 09:25 PM..
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Old 06-05-2012, 08:36 AM
 
Location: Connectucut shore but on a hill
2,617 posts, read 6,987,807 times
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Originally Posted by mdm1 View Post
Well here's my two cents, >>>snip<<<
Not 2 cents, that was $100000. Brilliant!
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Old 06-05-2012, 11:59 AM
 
395 posts, read 1,612,110 times
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^^ Agree - this post should be cut and pasted to every Westchester school thread on this forum!
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Old 06-05-2012, 02:49 PM
 
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That WAS good!

Why didn't you enjoy your experience much?
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Old 06-06-2012, 08:42 AM
 
Location: Where my bills arrive
19,022 posts, read 16,838,454 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdm1 View Post
.
Probally one of the most constructive descriptions of a school system I ever read! ....
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Old 06-06-2012, 01:29 PM
 
15 posts, read 47,263 times
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that was a good post, thanks. I dont currently live in an area that is any different- forest hills, queens-everyone we know at her current school are educated professionals or stay at home parents who if not expect, at least strongly hope their kids go to grad school, or 4 year colleges. So I can look at the different programs, maths, arts etc. as holding some importance to me although this si also my first child and she just turned 5 so I am not experienced and may be caught in NYC school fever. good POV about everything though will definitely have my husband read this too. I just keep reading things like "tarrytown schools are terrible" or " you only want one of the mamaroneck schools" and without really having a clue I dont know what they really mean! what makes a school in bronxville for example, SO superior to others? is it a lot of self promoting or self congratulating? We are definitely more of the artsy/slightly hippie/ urban/horsey type definitely do not want a country club atmosphere!
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Old 06-06-2012, 01:33 PM
bg7
 
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People generally rank simply on academic scores, and thats what is being meant with school X is so much better than school Y. Of course, the pottery, latin and music theory courses as well as the school grounds, buildings and sports facilities etc. don't count in that, so you have to do the hard homework and get researching the particular schools you are interested in.
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Old 06-06-2012, 03:33 PM
 
100 posts, read 426,522 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ammag View Post
that was a good post, thanks. I dont currently live in an area that is any different- forest hills, queens-everyone we know at her current school are educated professionals or stay at home parents who if not expect, at least strongly hope their kids go to grad school, or 4 year colleges. So I can look at the different programs, maths, arts etc. as holding some importance to me although this si also my first child and she just turned 5 so I am not experienced and may be caught in NYC school fever. good POV about everything though will definitely have my husband read this too. I just keep reading things like "tarrytown schools are terrible" or " you only want one of the mamaroneck schools" and without really having a clue I dont know what they really mean! what makes a school in bronxville for example, SO superior to others? is it a lot of self promoting or self congratulating? We are definitely more of the artsy/slightly hippie/ urban/horsey type definitely do not want a country club atmosphere!
bg7 is pretty much right, that the academic scores drive a lot of the reputation, but I still think the jury is out on how much of that is self selecting. The highest mean SAT scores (1935) come from Scarsdale, which also has the highest median income in Westchester ($237K). I bet if you took all the kids in Scarsdale and swapped them out with the students in Mount Vernon High, which is similarly sized, you'd still have stellar scores despite having less money per student, lower teacher salaries, etc. I had plenty of teachers who were not very knowledgeable in their area, had no interest in teaching or kids, were unfathomably lazy and the administration refused to acknowledge any of that, but from empirical observations about the graduates, it doesn't seem to have mattered much.

Again, people have all sorts of preferences about the different flavors of education, AP vs IB, emphasis on extracurriculars vs academics, block scheduling and whatnot, so if you feel strongly about any of that, that's as good as reason as any. Here's a compilation of school administrators answering the question, "What makes your high school exceptional?" (I know you are looking for elementary schools, but you can try to get a glimpse of the attitudes of each district).

You have to read in between the lines with the responses.

For example:

Scarsdale's administration says:

"Scarsdale’s tutorial structure is a defining aspect of Scarsdale’s high school culture. While students may choose to work in the library, gather with friends in common spaces, or even leave campus during unscheduled free periods, many use the time to meet with their teachers, to review work, to explore areas of common interest, or simply to talk. The individualized relationships they build with their teachers support and sustain them throughout their years at the high school by providing them with learning strategies, academic assistance, and self-advocacy skills that help them to become increasingly responsible, independent students and people."

Note that they emphasize the laid back culture and trust that they place in the students that I mentioned in my previous post. This is indicative of a place that is largely composed of upper class families who will push their kids to succeed academically.

On the other hand, Port Chester's administration says:

"Port Chester High School’s motto is “Success for Every Student.” It collaborates with various institutions to provide students and their families with unparalleled resources, including a school-based health center, counseling services, and extensive afterschool activities. Boasting a nationally-recognized marching band, the school encourages students to discover their potential and exhibit Ram Pride in and out of the classroom."

Emphasizing a student health center and afterschool activities is a sign of a community that needs the school to perform basic duties such as health care and supervision, which is a sign that education and college prep may take a backseat.


What people mean when they say that the schools are terrible can either be that they had a bad experience there, that they drove through the town and it looked poor to them and they assumed things or that they saw a chart of test scores or graduation rates and based their judgment off of that. Very few people (and I am not one of them), have any personal insight into more than a few districts in Westchester, and everything else is perception that is gleaned from acquaintances, newspapers, playing against their sports teams and so forth. There is going to be a lot of local pride type stuff that will factor into people's assessment of their own school district vs neighbors.

As for the culture thing, the golf, tennis and yachting vibe is strongly centered on the Rye area in southeast Westchester and other towns adjacent to the Long Island Sound. The fancy horse country is centered in the Bedford/Katonah area in the northeast. A less rural feeling, but still artsy/hippie/green/outdoorsy vibe exists in most of the river towns and some of the central towns, such as Pleasantville.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bg7 View Post
People generally rank simply on academic scores, and thats what is being meant with school X is so much better than school Y. Of course, the pottery, latin and music theory courses as well as the school grounds, buildings and sports facilities etc. don't count in that, so you have to do the hard homework and get researching the particular schools you are interested in.
Yup. If your kid has a special need, whether it be a disability or an interest in a specific sport, that's something you'll have to do a lot of leg work. If your kid is a "normal" kid, then it's hard to go wrong among the 25 or so "good" school districts. The conventional wisdom largely correlates with the mean SAT scores of the school, which correlates with high median income, low poverty rates, etc. A sortable chart of school data can be found here.
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Old 06-06-2012, 03:38 PM
 
414 posts, read 297,701 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdm1 View Post
Well here's my two cents, as a product of K-12 in a "good" Northern Westchester school. When I say Westchester in the following paragraphs, this only applies to to the wealthier, sleepier towns with reputations for good schools, and not Yonkers, Mount Vernon, New Rochelle, Peekskill or White Plains. I know less about the good school systems south of 287, but I get the vibe that those places are more old money/country clubby and the northern areas have a more hippie/artistic/outdoorsy/horse people vibe.

I did not enjoy my schooling experience very much at all, but what I think at the root of what people are paying for is a community culture that encourages academic and professional achievement and discourages hard drug use, pregnancy, gang membership and other social ills. All the stuff about class size and art and independent study and play areas and other things that parents value pale in comparison to the value of going to a place where becoming a drug dealer would be downright embarrassing to everyone involved and would result in the kid in question being ostracized from the community at large. I'm not talking about someone who is selling a quarter of an ounce of weed to his buddies as a favor, but anything harder or dealing as a real profit motivated business would be viewed negatively. Same thing for getting pregnant or not going to college. In my school the baseline for not being embarrassed about your academic achievement was getting > 90 on your yearly average (regardless of whether you took advanced classes or not). For colleges, the minimum socially acceptable college was the better SUNY schools, such as Binghamton and Buffalo. Going to WCC or somewhere else local was seen as an indication of failure. There is of course going to be a small minority of students who aren't going to cut it in any school, but even amongst that crowd dropping out was seen as a drastic and reckless measure, which judging by statistics, is not the view many students take in the NYC schools.

When I was in elementary school we had some kids who were forced to have their class in a trailer on the property, which was cramped and required going outside to get anywhere else in the school and I guarantee that didn't make a difference in the long term value of their schooling. In a community where 90% of the families are hardworking, successful and educated people who have worked hard to secure their lifestyle and care deeply about their children's future, you'd have to affirmatively work to build a school system that will prevent their children from succeeding at life. Parents in Westchester will devote lots of time to their children's hobbies, help their child's friends secure jobs and internships, and generally use their knowledge, time, money and connections to better the lives of their children, whether it be teaching kids skills not covered in school, securing a lawyer for an alcohol related arrest or hiring a private tutor for SAT prep. Just by the fact that you are posting this here, and are showing deep concern about the educational environment for your children means you'd fit into the club. There are whole swaths of the state where making the school district a key point in relocation is either viewed as not necessary or a luxury that cannot be afforded.

Another big plus of the Westchester schools (I'm sure there are exceptions to the following, but as a generalization this is true) is that school is less prison like than it is in other parts of NY and the country. Zero-tolerance policies are not popular, open campus policies (contingent on academic performance) for high schoolers are common, metal detectors and regular locker searches unheard of, dress codes are barebones, suspensions reserved for extreme conduct and micromanaging student behavior with hall passes and strict adhesion to the bells is viewed as arcane. The laxness and freedom is rarely abused, and makes for a positive and comfortable environment in the schools. There are just less opportunities for temptation and failure in these communities, which is probably why such a laid back approach doesn't lead to anarchy.

All of that being said, there will likely be crappy teachers, out of touch administrators, programs that look good on paper to parents, but have no value (we had a grant funded arts program that was run by non-teachers who were incapable of working with children, that ended up being a complete waste of everything) and other frustrations and injustices. Nothing is going to be perfect, and your individual experience might even be negative, but at the end of the day, you'll be coming out way ahead of people in lesser school districts just by the nature of the community you will be living in.

Good luck on your search, and don't stress too much. Everyone is going to tell you that their school is better than the others because of some trait that appeals to white, upper middle class folks, say Singapore Math or high per pupil spending, but if your goal is to have a child who is going to be a smart, self-sufficient, college educated, professionally and financially successful individual, the individual nuances of each district don't matter much. Now if you think its a perfectly good thing if your child wants to become a mechanic or some other blue collar, lower paying, get your hands dirty type profession, you will be potentially harming your child by moving somewhere where the guidance department automatically assumes that a four year college is the best option for all students who aren't abject academic failures.
I grew up in Northern Westchester as well (graduated HS in the mid 90's), this description is spot on. I also hated school while I was there, but when I got to college, I realized how lucky I was.

A couple of my friends have returned to our hometown to raise their kids, and almost everyone I know from Northern Westchester has returned. I will one day too.
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