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Old 06-19-2015, 02:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NOLA101 View Post
It's true.
So if Bronxville isn't harmed by being next to working class areas, if Manhattan isn't harmed by having gigantic housing projects everywhere, then can anyone reasonably say that Northern Westchester will be harmed by a few apartment complexes for middle income earners? Of course not. It won't have any effect.
I suppose you are going to ignore how zoning for school system work and having superior schools will impact property value. NYCHA is the worst landlord in NYC (while running up a huge deficit due to mismanagement).
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Old 06-19-2015, 02:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by hominamad View Post
NOLA is taking groups of unrelated facts and tying them together in order to prove some kind of bigger point. The fact is that each market is completely different and you can't compare one to the other. As others mentioned there are a lot of factors that go into housing prices and desirability. You cannot take something that works in Manhattan and use that as proof that it would work in Chappaqua or Bronxville, or anywhere else.
Overall your point is true. But i take issue with "it works in Manhattan". The definition of "works" is very sketchy. As it doesn't work for the families it is supposed to be helping, it doesn't work for the operating expense fund that is billions in debt with the units in major disrepair, it doesn't work for the taxpayers footing the bill, it doesn't work for crime and creates perverse incentives to everyone involved from builders to tenants, to politicians. The only constituency it is working for as far as I can tell is the politicians that get on soapboxes and give soaring rhetorical speeches claiming they are "for" affordable housing (bc who isn't?) to buy votes with programs that have never worked in the past, aren't working in the present and will not work in the future.
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Old 06-19-2015, 02:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by NYer23 View Post
I suppose you are going to ignore how zoning for school system work and having superior schools will impact property value. NYCHA is the worst landlord in NYC (while running up a huge deficit due to mismanagement).
How would it impact property values? The middle income housing will only deliver a couple of dozen households.

Are you saying that a school district like Chappaqua won't be able to function if 10 middle class students are added to the schools, and that all the property values will plummet? That's completely absurd.

It isn't like they're importing hood rats from Camden or something. These will be middle income households from the area. The schools will not be impacted. The numbers are tiny, and there's no evidence that middle class children can't learn or are more disruptive than upper class children.

The problems of NYCHA have nothing to do with what's happening in Westchester and are basically 100% the fault of the feds, who have cut funding by like 90% over the last few decades, while restricting who can rent the housing.
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Old 06-19-2015, 02:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by hominamad View Post
NYou cannot take something that works in Manhattan and use that as proof that it would work in Chappaqua or Bronxville, or anywhere else.
Why not? The laws of supply and demand don't apply to Chappaqua? Why is Chappaqua unique, and why should it be able to violate federal laws?
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Old 06-19-2015, 03:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by NOLA101 View Post
How would it impact property values? The middle income housing will only deliver a couple of dozen households.

Are you saying that a school district like Chappaqua won't be able to function if 10 middle class students are added to the schools, and that all the property values will plummet? That's completely absurd.
HUD ambition is larger than a few houses.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KZJYO2XvpM
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Old 06-20-2015, 07:14 AM
 
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Originally Posted by RonaldusMagnus View Post
Ahhh there it is. Anyone opposed to anything and argues on merit must be "racist and elitist" The ultimate straw man argument to suppress any and all debate and scare away the opposition out of fear of being labeled. My stance is based on the economics and clear poor outcomes of the giant "affordable housing" social experiment that has failed so spectacularly in the most wealthy city on earth. Quite the opposite of racist/elitist, it is also clear that these programs do more harm than help and the statistics bear it out.

Your now arguing "DEGREE" of affordability specifically regarding the one example you put forth, not whether or not the units make economic sense or not to begin with. Clearly they don't or they wouldn't have been built in the first place without the subsidies. So let me ask the next in a series of logical questions. A family of four is in the 3 bedroom apartment at $60k income. Mommy or Daddy has the opportunity to get a position which would push the family to $70k income. Take the job and lose the apartment? These are only the beginning of the perverse incentives.


You only have to make the income guideline to initially qualify. You are then free to make as much money as you want. This is not section 8 where you have to recertify every year. You clearly don't understand what is being built , but that seems willful.

I'm not going to play "free market" because the obscene zoning laws in these northern towns are not "free market" either. You can't say you support free market when it's convenient for you
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Old 06-20-2015, 07:49 AM
 
729 posts, read 604,275 times
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Originally Posted by NOLA101 View Post
It isn't like they're importing hood rats from Camden or something.
Just a point of clarification - I think the term "hood rat" means a neighborhood girl in a poor area who sleeps around and is considered very promiscuous/a borderline prostitute. I think you mean to refer to gang bangers from the hood.

In any event I agree with you NOLA that these aren't the type of people who will be living in the HUD housing. I'm thinking more like middle class civil servants.
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Old 06-20-2015, 12:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by juppiter View Post
You only have to make the income guideline to initially qualify. You are then free to make as much money as you want. This is not section 8 where you have to recertify every year. You clearly don't understand what is being built , but that seems willful.

I'm not going to play "free market" because the obscene zoning laws in these northern towns are not "free market" either. You can't say you support free market when it's convenient for you
Then it makes even less sense if what you claim is true. You can qualify only on initial income and remain for life, then become hedge fund manager, make a ton of money and live in a taxpayer subsidized unit for life. Wait, that already happens with rent control/stabilization in NYC. Socialism certainly is a wonderful never ending series of unintended consequences.
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Old 06-20-2015, 12:12 PM
 
789 posts, read 545,216 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NOLA101 View Post
It isn't like they're importing hood rats from Camden or something.

The problems of NYCHA have nothing to do with what's happening in Westchester and are basically 100% the fault of the feds, who have cut funding by like 90% over the last few decades, while restricting who can rent the housing.
For a guy who labels others racist/elitist you have a way with words.

The second sentence is PRICELESS. Fault of the FEDS who have CUT funding while restricting who can rent. Lets see, thousands upon thousands are on wait lists to get into apartments that turnover at a rate of 3% and whose avg occupant remains in the unit 30 years and who are 51% BELOW the poverty level. You would have to level all of manhattan and turn it into one giant HUD Project to meet the demand. Cut funding? You mean taxpayers are upset that they are on the hook for the giant sinkhole program that dooms any who enter into a death spiral of poverty?

Oh but wait, 3 blocks away in Lincoln Center there is a giant coop building getting incredible pricing for its units, therefore SUCCESS! LOL. Epic Fail.
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Old 06-20-2015, 04:43 PM
 
5,721 posts, read 5,755,607 times
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Originally Posted by RonaldusMagnus View Post
Then it makes even less sense if what you claim is true. You can qualify only on initial income and remain for life, then become hedge fund manager, make a ton of money and live in a taxpayer subsidized unit for life. Wait, that already happens with rent control/stabilization in NYC. Socialism certainly is a wonderful never ending series of unintended consequences.

Well yes. The problem with welfare is that it creates a disincentive to work. It becomes a self-sustaining cycle. That's basically my entire point. Instead of going on welfare, living in one of these units allows a working class family a chance at life in a nice area without the fear of losing affordability if they have any success in life. It is funny to me that you consider that a socialistic subsidy, but not the home mortgage tax credit. Personally I don't see the difference.
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