Great article on Westchester taxes (New York, York: spring break, lawyer, find a job)

[Walter Greenspan]

Originally Posted by Jrprofess

So you read one article about a gang issue in one of the 50+ towns in Suffolk I guess...;).

Make that 150+.

(Not counting the 2 Indian reservations, Suffolk County's 10 towns include 31 villages and 126 hamlets.)

[dma1250]

Originally Posted by PEmom

Great article! Thanks Cali-to-NJ. Tax is high because our schools teachers and management are paid ridiculously high given their three to four months vacations each year and fat retirement benefits. It almost matches up to Wall Street on a hourly rate basis! I am not talking about a new teacher with $50-70K annual rate. I am referring to those older teachers and principles who get paid $130 to 200k a year. Does that lead to good schools? No! The comps between a scarsdale school teacher vs. an ossining school teacher probably are not much different. But you get a totally different school reputation and scores. Let along compare them to Darien, Ridgefield or Redding schools, where tax is 7-8000 and schools are top notch! The culprit is the public service union. But I really don't think current or future governer will and are able to do anything to disolve the union....too powerful. Maybe when the average property tax reaches to $40k/yr, something will be done then. For people who don't have enough financial resources to live here or don't have some sort of tax shelters like lots of rich people do here, move to CT would be the best choice. For people like us who cannot move there due to job locations but don't have enough resources to cushion the ever increasing salary of teachers and county management and cannot set up a tax shelter due to we both work for c corporations --- tighten the belt!

There are good reasons that Westchester districts try to pay veteran teachers relatively high salaries. Teaching is incredibly stressful and has a very high burn-out rate. Teachers can make better pay in much less stressful jobs in our area, so there is a lot of incentive for them to leave teaching. Finding and training new teachers is expensive and time consuming, and in the end costs the districts a lot more than paying veteran teachers a "high" salary. I work in a field where the majority of people are former teachers. As a former teacher myself, I think that paying a good salary is the only shot schools have at retaining talented and experienced teachers. And $150K to $200K seems like a perfectly reasonable salary for veteran teachers in the NYC area.

I do agree, however, that the teachers unions are out of control. The unions should not have the power to call the shots that they currently have and schools' hands should not be tied when it comes to trying to balance budgets. It is absurd that so many teachers unions refused to give up raises this year even though the districts were facing massive budget crises and were faced with cutting positions. (And kudos to teachers like those in Peekskill who voluntarily gave up raises in order to avoid layoffs!) It is also absurd that schools don't have the freedom to lay off whichever teachers they choose to when they need to cut budgets. "Last-hired, First-Fired" rules are beyond absurd. As we enter this age of reduced resources, schools need to be given the power to decide what to cut and what to keep.

[Forest_Hills_Daddy]

You can save loads of money in the long term by merging the middle and elementary schools, so that you keep only one principal and admin staff for both. The parochial schools do this already. One challenge with public schools, however, is that the elementary and middle schools are in different locations, so in the interim, some of the admin staff (including the principal) will have to divide their time. Over time, a central location can be designated.

More unpopular but cost-effective measures include cutting extra curriculars like bands, sports teams, and classes that don't really enhance academic abilities. Doesn't sound nice but at least it won't hit the academics.

[havoc315]

I don't want to make teachers into the bad guys. There are many great teachers. Many hard workers.

But in Westchester, many of them are overpaid. The average salary in my own school district in 100k, with many teachers 130k or more. dma suggests 150k-200k is fair for teachers. If so, then I really should have become a public school teacher.

The reality is, in how many other professions can you work in the suburbs, earn 150k+, get about 3 months of vacation per year, and retire with a generous pension in your 50's or early 60's?
Unlike city schools, there is no shortage of teachers for these wealthy Westchester school districts.

I do think it is entirely reasonable to try to slow the growth curve of teacher compensation packages.

But it would be a mistake to solely blame the teachers and their unions. As discussed in the article,the tax/spending problems run much deeper. We have too many overlapping agencies. There should be greater consolidation of services between towns.

But politically, such changes are nearly impossible in Westchester. There is a political firestorm over relatively minor changes in zoning. (In Chappaqua recently, a massive war over whether to re-zone the Reader's digest property). To make a major change, like asking local villages to give up their local police forces and use the town police force, that's just not going to happen politically.

I found the comparison of Westchester schools to Fairfax, Virginia, to be interesting. Brings the question of the cost-savings if Westchester acted as 1 big school district. I know nothing about the demographics of Fairfax. But Westchester has great socio-economic diversity between towns. I am neither defending nor attacking the system, but the reality is, people from "rich districts" do not want their property tax dollars used to subsidize schools in "poor districts." Many residents may be happy to "overspend" on students in their own town, but would throw a fit about some of that money being funneled to schools in other areas.

Overall though, we do need to move in a direction of consolidation of schools and services, and getting teacher compensation under control.

[dma1250]

Originally Posted by havoc315

...But in Westchester, many of them are overpaid. The average salary in my own school district in 100k, with many teachers 130k or more. dma suggests 150k-200k is fair for teachers. If so, then I really should have become a public school teacher.

The reality is, in how many other professions can you work in the suburbs, earn 150k+, get about 3 months of vacation per year, and retire with a generous pension in your 50's or early 60's?
Unlike city schools, there is no shortage of teachers for these wealthy Westchester school districts...

I don't know what it is you do for a living, but most jobs are not nearly as important to society as being a teacher. Your thinking "I really should have become a public school teacher" (no matter how snidely) is exactly why good teachers should be rewarded after years of service. Otherwise they will never join the profession or will soon leave for easier and cushier jobs. As I said, my field is full of former teachers--and the really good ones make more than 150K to 200K after 15 or 20 years in the business.

As for a shortage of good teachers in wealthy Westchester schools, there is indeed an ongoing "brain drain" of the best and most promising teachers. One of the people who recently joined my office (selected out of a huge number of apllicants) was a teacher from Scarsdale--and I have to say that she is extremely bright and talented and we're thrilled to have her. She is a good example of the type of people that our public schools need to do whatever they can to hold onto. Certainly our schools have no trouble finding "qualified" new teachers with little or no experience--but the trick is keeping the really good ones after they've been at it for awhile and have honed their skills.

The trick to cutting school expenses is to free the districts from the huge numbers of state and federal unfunded mandates and to give the individual districts a lot more control over what they spend their money on. Schools need to be able to fire the teachers they want to and do the repairs that they think are most critical--not those that Albany tells them to do every x years. Centralizing everything is almost never the cure-all that people think it is going to be.

[havoc315]

Originally Posted by dma1250

Otherwise they will never join the profession or will soon leave for easier and cushier jobs. As I said, my field is full of former teachers--and the really good ones make more than 150K to 200K after 15 or 20 years in the business.

There is no shortage of teacher applicants for jobs in Westchester -- teachers bang down the doors to get those salaries, and for good reason.

150k-200k is more than many physicians earn. It is far more than Judges earn in Westchester. (And far more than most Westchester attorneys, though one can certainly say that teachers provide a more important service). 200k is more than a United States Senator earns.

I have no problem with fairly compensating teachers. But should a veteran music teacher be earning more than a Pediatrician, more than a sitting Judge, and more than a United States Senator?

As to easier and "cushier" jobs. I have teachers and educators in my own family. I have no doubt that the job can be quite challenging. But is it really that much more challenging than being... going back to the list I used before... more challenging than being a United States Senator, a sitting Judge, or a Pediatrician?

And when you factor in the 3-months of vacation, and the generous pension that can be collected in late 50's or early 60's-- those aspects need to be factored in as well. I'd venture to say that outside of million-dollar athletes and CEOs, that Westchester teachers are among the top-compensating jobs out there!

You're suggesting that teachers should be compensated far more than many people with advanced degrees, who work 50-60+ hours per week in the private sector, with no pensions, and comparably miniscule vacation times.

Many Westchester districts already pay nearly double NYC pay for public school teachers. That may suggest that NYC teachers are underpaid to some degree, but it also suggests that Westchester teachers may be overpaid.

You cited anecdotal evidence of teachers leaving the profession, voluntarily. I don't see it. I see school districts having to release untenured teachers for budgetary reasons. I don't see many tenured teachers voluntarily leaving the profession through attrition. For the vast majority of Westchesterteachers, there are very few opportunities in the private sector that would be more financially lucrative.

(On the other hand, I have seen teachers leave the profession the moment they can collect a full pension, and then embark on a second career. Thereby, really maximizing their income.. collecting their generous pension, while working at another job).

[Pop Of Two]

Havoc315: well said!

No disrespect towards teachers...but to your point, $100 - $200K per year? (Sorry...for 10 months minus a few other vacation weeks scattered through the school year?) That's insane!

Here's a question: How does Fairfield County do it? They have plenty of school districts (Greenwich, Darien, Westport, etc.) that are just as good as the best districts in Westchester...the cost of living is high there too and the taxes are a FRACTION of what they are in Westchester.

[dma1250]

Originally Posted by havoc315

There is no shortage of teacher applicants for jobs in Westchester -- teachers bang down the doors to get those salaries, and for good reason.

150k-200k is more than many physicians earn. It is far more than Judges earn in Westchester. (And far more than most Westchester attorneys, though one can certainly say that teachers provide a more important service). 200k is more than a United States Senator earns.

I have no problem with fairly compensating teachers. But should a veteran music teacher be earning more than a Pediatrician, more than a sitting Judge, and more than a United States Senator?

As to easier and "cushier" jobs. I have teachers and educators in my own family. I have no doubt that the job can be quite challenging. But is it really that much more challenging than being... going back to the list I used before... more challenging than being a United States Senator, a sitting Judge, or a Pediatrician?

And when you factor in the 3-months of vacation, and the generous pension that can be collected in late 50's or early 60's-- those aspects need to be factored in as well. I'd venture to say that outside of million-dollar athletes and CEOs, that Westchester teachers are among the top-compensating jobs out there!

You're suggesting that teachers should be compensated far more than many people with advanced degrees, who work 50-60+ hours per week in the private sector, with no pensions, and comparably miniscule vacation times.

Many Westchester districts already pay nearly double NYC pay for public school teachers. That may suggest that NYC teachers are underpaid to some degree, but it also suggests that Westchester teachers may be overpaid.

You cited anecdotal evidence of teachers leaving the profession, voluntarily. I don't see it. I see school districts having to release untenured teachers for budgetary reasons. I don't see many tenured teachers voluntarily leaving the profession through attrition. For the vast majority of Westchesterteachers, there are very few opportunities in the private sector that would be more financially lucrative.

(On the other hand, I have seen teachers leave the profession the moment they can collect a full pension, and then embark on a second career. Thereby, really maximizing their income.. collecting their generous pension, while working at another job).

Yes, I totally think that veteran teachers should be paid as much as or more than local judges and pediatricians. Perhaps not as much as United State Senators, but they get untold extra benefits so that is hardly a fair comparison.

Teachers have advanced degrees and most work 50 hours a week or more (before school, after school, at night, and on weekends planning instruction, reviewing work, etc.). (And any teacher who doesn't put in those hours isn't doing a great job and therefore shouldn't get the chance to earn the high salaries we're talking about). Having worked as a teacher and in a corporation I can say that there is simply no comparison when it comes to stress and difficulty.

The vacations are a great plus--but a deserved one, given the stress of the school year. As for the pension--I'll grant you that that is a big plus: but they don't get a matching 401K plan as they would in most other careers.

150K to 200K is not that big a salary in the NYC area, certainly not for someone who has been in their field for 15 to 20 years. The point of high salaries is to attract and keep high quality people--people who have masters and doctorates in education and who could certainly have become pediatricians, judges, lawyers, stock brokers, or any number of other things if they wanted to.

Yes, as I said before, there are loads of applicants for new teachers. But there is indeed a steady stream of experienced teachers leaving schools voluntarily every year. I can go around the office and call others I know in the field to see how many of my colleagues used to teach in Westchester schools if you like, but that would just be more anecdotal evidence.

[Walter Greenspan]

There seems to be only one way to stop this insanity:

Each school district should lay off all their administrators and all their faculty, sell all the school buildings and give each student in the district money to attend a school district, public or private, of their choice. That would reduce the annual school property tax bill for sure.

After laying off all the administrators and all the teachers and selling all the school buildings and most other school district property, the school district would no longer be an operating school district and would simply be a mechanism for collecting (reduced) property taxes and passing these funds as vouchers to the students in the district to use at a private school or at another still existing gov't school in districts that did not lay off their teachers and sell their buildings.

Newly formed private schools will bid for many of the school buildings that the school district will be liquidating and they will interview and hire many of the teachers laid off by the school district, but at a much more rational salary and benefits package.

[havoc315]

Originally Posted by Pop Of Two

Here's a question: How does Fairfield County do it? They have plenty of school districts (Greenwich, Darien, Westport, etc.) that are just as good as the best districts in Westchester...the cost of living is high there too and the taxes are a FRACTION of what they are in Westchester.

They pay their teachers less, they have larger school districts (economies of scale), and they provide less government services outside of schools.