Great article on Westchester taxes (New York, York: sales, transfer, bankrupt)

[havoc315]

Originally Posted by dma1250

Yes, I totally think that veteran teachers should be paid as much as or more than local judges and pediatricians. Perhaps not as much as United State Senators, but they get untold extra benefits so that is hardly a fair comparison.

Teachers have advanced degrees and most work 50 hours a week or more (before school, after school, at night, and on weekends planning instruction, reviewing work, etc.). (And any teacher who doesn't put in those hours isn't doing a great job and therefore shouldn't get the chance to earn the high salaries we're talking about). Having worked as a teacher and in a corporation I can say that there is simply no comparison when it comes to stress and difficulty.

The vacations are a great plus--but a deserved one, given the stress of the school year. As for the pension--I'll grant you that that is a big plus: but they don't get a matching 401K plan as they would in most other careers.

150K to 200K is not that big a salary in the NYC area, certainly not for someone who has been in their field for 15 to 20 years. The point of high salaries is to attract and keep high quality people--people who have masters and doctorates in education and who could certainly have become pediatricians, judges, lawyers, stock brokers, or any number of other things if they wanted to.

I think your comparisons are far off. 150k-200k is a big salary everywhere, including New York. Even President Obama defines "rich" as a family earning 250k+. Thus, husband and wife teachers, would be rich under this formula.

Some lawyers who work in big firms, working 80+ hours per week, certainly make more than 200k. But the bulk of lawyers working in Westchester, make far less than 200k. As to government attorneys -- the TOP salary for a U.S. attorney is 122k. And that's without 3 months of paid vacation. So they are both public servants... the US Attorney, and the junior high school music teacher... should the music teacher be earning 50% more than the US Attorney?

Certainly, New York and Westchester has its share of people who earn hundreds of thousands of dollars, even millions.... But for just about every field imaginable, 150-200k is a very high salary. Most lawyers, doctors, stock brokers make less than that. And certainly, just about everyone else in the public sector makes less than that including US Attorneys, Judges, Senators. (the President of the US makes more). You are suggesting that veteran teachers should earn about the same as a Supreme Court Justice (210k for a Supreme Court Justice).

Yes, most teachers have an advanced education --- Typically, a Master's degree. But compare that to a pediatrician -- who went to medical school for 4 years, PLUS several years of internship and residency. They are often on call on weekends, etc. They don't have 3 months of vacations. So does a teacher really deserve to make more than a pediatrician? All those pediatricians would be much better served, if they skipped medical school and became 10th grade biology teachers. (Of course, they wouldnt have the political connections to actually get hired in Westchester, and they wouldn't be so nicely compensated teaching in the city).

I do believe teachers should be valued. But you are arguing that they should be the highest compensated profession in all of public service, and one of the highest of any profession in the country. All while collecting some of the best benefits, and vacation time that is unheard of, in any other profession.

The article compared Fairfax County to Westchester County. They both have top rated schools. Median income is actually higher in Fairfax County than Westchester: According to: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highest-income_counties_in_the_United_States
Fairfax County is the second highest earning county in the Country.
Yet, as expressed in the article, the top teacher salaries in Fairfax are significantly lower than Westchester. (The starting salaries are similar, and the starting salaries do not seem inappropriate in either place).
Thus, if Fairfax can keep great teachers while paying thousands of dollars less, than why can't Westchester?

[dma1250]

Havoc, oh Havoc...

I wrote this long resonse and then went off to a meeting and came back and evidently closed the window. Suffice it to say that I totally agree with myself and disagree with you! 150K-200K is certainly a great salary, but it isn't that much for a 15-20 year veteran in the NYC area. I know plenty of former teachers who earn lots more. I can't think of any public service job that is more critical to the nation's future than teaching. So why shouldn't the very best of them be paid the highest after 15-20 years of service?

[havoc315]

dma, we will respectfully disagree with each other. I value teachers. They are valuable public servants. But I do not believe that every single Westchester veteran teacher is more valuable than virtually any other public servant in the entire country. I do not think a veteran kindergarten teacher should be a higher paying job than Governor of New York. I do not think that a veteran junior high school music teacher should be a higher paying job than US Attorney. I do not think that a veteran gym teacher should be more highly compensated than an average pediatrician, lawyer, stock broker, or just about any other position.

Of course, I do think we agree on 1 thing --- You ask, "shouldn't the very best of them" --- But the reality is, under the system, a great veteran teacher makes the same salary as a horrible veteran teacher. I would have no problem giving extra compensation to a few teachers who are so special, so significant, that they really change the lives of their students. But should a mediocre gym teacher be earning $140k per year, just because he has been there for 20 years?

Why stop at 150-200k? Why not pay teachers 300k? Why not surpass Obama's salary, and go for 400k?

To me, there are 2 ways to judge a fair salary.
1-- Simple supply and demand. At what salary, are you attracting enough qualified applicants. I know many excellent teachers who would LOVE a job in Westchester, but they can't even get their foot in the door. Qualified applicants are clamoring to be teachers in Westchester. So by supply and demand, the compensation levels are too high. (What NYC teacher wouldn't want to switch to Westchester, and get their salary doubled?)
2-- Is it fair, when considering total compensation (including paid time off), compared to other professions. The AVERAGE teacher salary in Westchester is 100k... For less than 10 months per year of work. (And many teachers supplement their income with additional summer jobs). In what other professions, are average salaries around 10k per month? Outside of physicians and Wall Street, it's pretty difficult to find professions with average salaries anywhere near that range.

[cali_to_nj]

dma and havoc, thank you for the lively and informative debate! My view lies somewhere in between - most teachers should be paid more than the $38k average in the Los Angeles Unified School District (a classic example of a too-large district and corrupt school board controlling the education of way too many kids), but less than the $100k average in Westchester.

I totally agree that some type of performance metric should be involved in determining teacher salaries, but it seems that no union will ever agree to that concept.

[dma1250]

Havoc,

Governor and attorney general are silly comparisons--those are short term positions that get relatively nominal salaries (for the caliber of person) because they lead to great riches (unless you leave office in disgrace or under indictment). As for the other comps, yes the best veteran kindergarten teachers should certainly be paid more than an average lawyer or stock broker. No question. (However I checked with lawyer friend and starting salaries at top NYC law firms are over 150k, plus bonus.)

Any society that values lawyers and stock brokers over kindergarten teachers is bound to fail. Since this is a free market, we can't control what stock brokers or lawyers earn, but we certainly can make sure that the best veteran kindergarten teachers in the NYC area make as much as a first-year lawyer as a top firm. When the best and brightest graduate college and think "should I get a masters in education so I can make 45K my first year and educate America's youth or should I go to law school so I can make over 150K my first year and help companies sue other companies? Or should I get an MBA and make ungodly sums selling meaningless shares of nothingness that are designed to loose their value?" at least that person will think, "Well, if I'm a teacher I'll at least make 150K in 20 years."

And, yes, I said "the best veteran" teachers. From my first post I said that schools need to be given the freedom to get rid of mediocre teachers and only keep the best. Our society is supposed to be a meritocracy, so our schools certainly should be.

Why stop at 200K? Because that is what good teachers can make in the private sector in NYC. While I do know lots of former teachers who make over 200K, I don't know any who make 400K.

Forgive the typos. Wrote this on the iPhone.

[havoc315]

dma... We aren't talking about the top teachers, we are talking about all teachers that reach a certain number of years.
Next, you said my comparison to Attorney General was incorrect, but I wasn't stalking about attorney general. I was talking about US Attorneys -- career Federal justice department attorneys, for whom the absolute top salaries are 122k. And yes, attorneys in top NYC firms start at 150k. But here in Westchester, your typical practitioner makes far far less. (the senior partners in my firm don't make 200k).
For that matter --- most college Professors make far less than 150-200k.

So why should a mediocre veteran gym teacher, make more than a senior FBI agent who puts his life on the line, more than a pediatrician protecting the health of our children, more than a United States Senator, more than an exceptional college professor, more than someone who has spent 30 years as a Federal prosecutor... And the list goes on and on.

As to teachers making 200k in the private sector --- I don't buy it. Sure, there might be the rare instance of a teacher who can find such lucrative employment in the private sector. I'm sure there are rare instances where a teacher can make even more. But for most teachers, they would not easily find such incomes in the private sector. My mother and mother-in-law are both teachers, and if they could earn 200 k in the private sector, they would do it in a heartbeat! In fact, my mother just said if you know of such a position, please let her know!

[dma1250]

Originally Posted by havoc315

dma... We aren't talking about the top teachers, we are talking about all teachers that reach a certain number of years.
Next, you said my comparison to Attorney General was incorrect, but I wasn't stalking about attorney general. I was talking about US Attorneys -- career Federal justice department attorneys, for whom the absolute top salaries are 122k. And yes, attorneys in top NYC firms start at 150k. But here in Westchester, your typical practitioner makes far far less. (the senior partners in my firm don't make 200k).
For that matter --- most college Professors make far less than 150-200k.

So why should a mediocre veteran gym teacher, make more than a senior FBI agent who puts his life on the line, more than a pediatrician protecting the health of our children, more than a United States Senator, more than an exceptional college professor, more than someone who has spent 30 years as a Federal prosecutor... And the list goes on and on.

As to teachers making 200k in the private sector --- I don't buy it. Sure, there might be the rare instance of a teacher who can find such lucrative employment in the private sector. I'm sure there are rare instances where a teacher can make even more. But for most teachers, they would not easily find such incomes in the private sector. My mother and mother-in-law are both teachers, and if they could earn 200 k in the private sector, they would do it in a heartbeat! In fact, my mother just said if you know of such a position, please let her know!

No, I was very clear throughout that I was talking about the best teachers. My point from the get-go was that there is nothing wrong with high salaries for teachers--the problem is with not giving schools control over how they spend their funds and who they fire. Mediocre teachers should be let go, leaving only the best ones.

Sorry about attorney general--I misread your comment (hard to read on the train). But US attorney are basically the same--they stay in those low paid positions for a short time and then move on to lucrative positions at private firms. And the people we're trying to attract to--and keep in--teaching are those who might get the positions in the top NYC firms.

As for your mom and mother-in-law, have them DM me their resumes. We're out of positions right now, but I'll keep them in mind for the future. Assuming they have masters degrees in education, teaching experience, are up on educational pedagogy, but have no direct experience in educational publishing they'll start at a hell of a lot more than a starting teacher's salary--and if they work out they should be making a whole lot more in relatively no time. The benefits are great, the company matches 401K dollar-for-dollar, and they'll be working with loads of other former teachers.

[havoc315]

US Attorneys are often lifers. And again, private firms are only significantly more lucrative if you are talking about the big exclusive NYC firms. If you didn't graduate top of your class from an elite law school, then you don't work for a firm like that. The vast majority of attorneys in the private sector make far less than 200k.

As to careers in educational publishing--- they both have Master's degrees, but not in straight education. (special education, and I believe history, their respective subject matters ). Doesn't seem they would qualify. And as you said, you have no open positions.
So really, how many such lucrative positions are there, that threaten to poach away thousands of teachers in the NYC area?
There are indeed good teachers all over the place now. If there were so many opportunities for a teacher to make 200k, then why are there any good teachers working in NYC making 50k?

The strongest evidence of the free market, is private schools. Private schools, free from the political power of the unions-- they tend to find and retain excellent teachers. Meanwhile, they typically pay less than the public schools. (some of their teachers simply prefer the private school setting, but for many, they would teach in public schools if hey could find a job. But 1 former Principal told me that they have nearly 100 qualified applicants for every position)

Thus, if private schools can retain good teachers, while paying less, than why can't Westchester schools?

I have no doubt that teachers remain underpaid in many places, including NYC.
Teaching should be a valued profession. They should be paid as white collar professionals. But should a veteran gym teacher earn more than some types of doctors? No, I think that's just absurd.

[PEmom]

I agree with Havoc. Everybody thinks their jobs are most valuable and should be paid high. So comparing across professions won't take the argument anywhere. Just compare our tax to our neighbor Connecticut. They have great schools and great towns, why do their property tax is only 1/4 to 1/3 of the we are paying here in Westchester??? It's self-explanatory.

[PEmom]

I (like most people other than teachers) work full time (means 52 weeks a year minus 3-4 weeks vacations) and 7 to 7 including commute time to the city. Other than paying the hefty property tax to fund teachers and county managements, I need to pay for my kids summer camps, babysitters for snow days, winter break, spring break, after-school etc. etc. By 4pm, the school building is empty. Teacher, staff, principle all go home. Only guy there is the cleaning person.