Great article on Westchester taxes (New York, Gates: fit in, how much, best school)

[italdream]

As a lawyer in his 30ies living in Westchester, I find offensive that teachers earn these salaries. My wife and I struggle to keep up with the expenses of maintaining a family. We now hear that, after all the taxes we pay, our school district (Mamaroneck Ave in Mamaroneck) is not that good. It does not provide busing, and we will have to move before our kids reach first-grade age limit. Forget about decent public recreation facilities. People blame the demographics of the area. I blame the corruption of the politicians, and the uncontrolled greed of those who call themselves public servants, including teachers, officers and such.

My wife and I are looking to relocate to a different suburbs not too far from the city. Suggestions anybody?

[Walter Greenspan]

Originally Posted by havoc315

Yes, we agree on merit pay. But I still think you overstate the opportunities for most teachers in the private sector. I do know a few teachers, and every single one, would jump at the type of job that you describe.

This is a bigger problem than many admit: Martin L. Gross in "The Conspiracy of Ignorance: The Failure of American Public Schools", describes how the typical teacher is academically inferior and trained in dubious "educational psychology" and faddish "whole language" methods. Indeed, according to Gross, " ... (M)ost teachers and administrators come from the bottom third of their class and are outscored on the SAT tests by their own college-bound students."

[Walter Greenspan]

Originally Posted by italdream

As a lawyer in his 30ies living in Westchester, I find offensive that teachers earn these salaries.
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My wife and I are looking to relocate to a different suburbs not too far from the city. Suggestions anybody?

You won't find what you are looking for in the suburbs that are in New York State.

The Gross study, "The Conspiracy of Ignorance: The Failure of American Public Schools", was for the nation as a whole; but, it is a well known secret among the Westchester educational fraternity that the majority of the highly-paid teachers teaching in the gov't schools in Westchester (and, for that matter, in all the New York State suburbs surrounding New York City) come from the bottom-third of their high school graduating class.

[havoc315]

Originally Posted by dma1250

Gee, I thought I had been so clear. I said that high salaries are needed in order to keep the very best teachers, who are the ones that leave teaching at a very high rate because they can do so much better elesewhere. We're not talking about an opportunity for every teacher, we're talking about opportunites for the top tier. I don't know the total number of jobs in the educational publishing field in our area, but the top companies alone have about 40,000 jobs in the area so I imagine the total is a lot higher than that. How many open positions at any given time? Don' know. Indeed entry level jobs will pay under 100K, but there are tremendous opportunities to grow and make much more than that--in far less than 20 years.

Personally, I want my kid to be taught by the very best people possible.

But there will always be better paying jobs for the "top" people. You'd have to offer million dollar salaries otherwise. Should schools be outbidding all other industries, so that the greatest economist in the world teaches high school economics? Should White Plains High School offer Johan Santana $20 million per year, to coach the baseball team? Should the Ardsley school district offer Bill Gates $50 million per year to teach computer science? Pay Warren Buffet $20 million per year to teach finance?

There will always be better paying jobs for the absolute top.

But in Westchester, we are already at a level where being a teacher is more lucrative than most private industry professions. In fact, being an experienced biology teacher could be more lucrative than being some types of a physician. An experienced history teacher, can make more than a great many lawyers.

I want my children taught by very good teachers. But to think that their high school biology teacher will be more knowledgeable about anatomy than their physician... To think that their 7th grade music teacher, will be as accomplished as the conductor of the NY Philharmonic... That's just not practical or realistic.

[dma1250]

Originally Posted by italdream

As a lawyer in his 30ies living in Westchester, I find offensive that teachers earn these salaries. My wife and I struggle to keep up with the expenses of maintaining a family. We now hear that, after all the taxes we pay, our school district (Mamaroneck Ave in Mamaroneck) is not that good. It does not provide busing, and we will have to move before our kids reach first-grade age limit. Forget about decent public recreation facilities. People blame the demographics of the area. I blame the corruption of the politicians, and the uncontrolled greed of those who call themselves public servants, including teachers, officers and such.

My wife and I are looking to relocate to a different suburbs not too far from the city. Suggestions anybody?

I find it offensive that anyone could be offended that someone who has taught local students for 20 years is now making 150K.

I understand being outraged that that teacher can't be fired no matter how bad he/she is. I understand being outraged that pension costs are skyrocketing and causing taxes to rise. I understand being outraged that schools are required by law to fix and replace things in their buildings that don't need fixing or replacing. I understand being outraged that schools are forced to spend huge portions of their budgets on silly things madated by the federal and state government. I understand being outraged that teacher unions seem to have no regard for the communities they serve or the fiscal realities they face. I understand being outraged that schools have so little control over who they fire or how they spend their money.

I think there are many things about how our schools are run that are worthy of outrage, perhaps even offense. But teacher pay isn't one of them. Without question, we need to fix the system so that raises are merit-based, but without question we need to reward the people who teach our kids and who do it well.

[PresidentJoeMorgan]

Good points, Walter Greenspan. Although whole language has fallen out of favor, I'm sure it has been replaced by another set of educational fads. Aspiring teachers are forced to take a preponderance of courses in "method", and learn a series of unproven techniques.

They are tested for actual knowledge with the "Content Specialty Test" (CST). However, these are relatively easy. Contemporary Education studies is very light on knowledge and heavy on "learning how to learn", a concept that sounds great at first, until you realize how lacking the substance behind it is.

[dma1250]

Originally Posted by havoc315

But there will always be better paying jobs for the "top" people. You'd have to offer million dollar salaries otherwise. Should schools be outbidding all other industries, so that the greatest economist in the world teaches high school economics? Should White Plains High School offer Johan Santana $20 million per year, to coach the baseball team? Should the Ardsley school district offer Bill Gates $50 million per year to teach computer science? Pay Warren Buffet $20 million per year to teach finance?

There will always be better paying jobs for the absolute top.

But in Westchester, we are already at a level where being a teacher is more lucrative than most private industry professions. In fact, being an experienced biology teacher could be more lucrative than being some types of a physician. An experienced history teacher, can make more than a great many lawyers.

I want my children taught by very good teachers. But to think that their high school biology teacher will be more knowledgeable about anatomy than their physician... To think that their 7th grade music teacher, will be as accomplished as the conductor of the NY Philharmonic... That's just not practical or realistic.

Yes, that is why I wrote "I don't want them to stay teaching just for the money---the best people will always be able to make a lot more than the highest paid veteran teacher does." Please take the time to read before responding.

Beyond that, you're just repeating yourself.

[PresidentJoeMorgan]

I find it offensive that anyone could be offended that someone who has taught local students for 20 years is now making 150K.

You are aware that this single income of 150K is, by itself, significantly more than the median *family* income of Westchester ($118,796). I would call that pretty damn high, especially considering the massive perks.

I respect teachers, but I don't think that finding this sort of salary objectionable is "offensive".

[PresidentJoeMorgan]

School districts compete wildly to get the best teachers. In all likelihood, though, this is not what causes the best student performance. When you get a preponderance of educated families with strong middle/upper class values together in a district, the norms students are exposed to encourage taking education seriously, taking in interest in one's studies, and resolving conflicts peaceably. This is what actually produces successful people.
Scarsdale would have the best schools even if they had significantly lower pay, and evidence shows that efforts by poor school districts to catch up simply by throwing money at educational problems have failed. A lot of money has been wasted on educational bloating.

[dma1250]

Originally Posted by PresidentJoeMorgan

School districts compete wildly to get the best teachers. In all likelihood, though, this is not what causes the best student performance. When you get a preponderance of educated families with strong middle/upper class values together in a district, the norms students are exposed to encourage taking education seriously, taking in interest in one's studies, and resolving conflicts peaceably. This is what actually produces successful people.
Scarsdale would have the best schools even if they had significantly lower pay, and evidence shows that efforts by poor school districts to catch up simply by throwing money at educational problems have failed. A lot of money has been wasted on educational bloating.

Simply throwing money at things never solved anything. However, money well spent can make a huge difference.

And, by the way, Scarsdale doesn't have the best schools, it has the best test scores. Two very different things.

Short of something ground-breaking, I think I've had it with this thread...