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Walter, not that I believe that absurd "factoid" for a second ...
So, dma1250, for the nation as a whole, teachers (and administrators) come from the bottom-third of their high school graduating class; but, in Westchester, and the other New York State suburbs surrounding New York City, most teachers are from an entirely different class of students than Martin L. Gross reported for the nation as whole in "The Conspiracy of Ignorance: The Failure of American Public Schools"?
So, then, if the majority of these highly-paid teachers teaching in the gov't schools do not come from the bottom-third of their high school graduating class, do less than 50% of the teachers come from the bottom third of their high school graduating class?
Less than 40%?
Less than 30%?
Less than 20%?
Less than 10%
0%?
It's my recollection that Gross obtained his information on high school class position from the admission offices/departments at schools/colleges of education.
So, dma1250, for the nation as a whole, teachers (and administrators) come from the bottom-third of their high school graduating class; but, in Westchester, and the other New York State suburbs surrounding New York City, most teachers are from an entirely different class of students than Martin L. Gross reported for the nation as whole in "The Conspiracy of Ignorance: The Failure of American Public Schools"?
So, then, if the majority of these highly-paid teachers teaching in the gov't schools do not come from the bottom-third of their high school graduating class, do less than 50% of the teachers come from the bottom third of their high school graduating class?
Less than 40%?
Less than 30%?
Less than 20%?
Less than 10%
0%?
It's my recollection that Gross obtained his information on high school class position from the admission offices/departments at schools/colleges of education.
Well, as Havoc pointed out earlier, Westchester has a much larger percentage of teachers with advanced degrees than most places. And I know, anecdotally, that we have a large number of graduates of Teacher's College and Bank Street College of Ed, two excellent grad schools that are not easy to get into. It's hard to imagine that such failures are getting advanced degrees from such prestigious schools. I suppose they must have really shaped up after high school. Which goes to my main point of who cares? It is a totally irrelevent factoid.
Well, as Havoc pointed out earlier, Westchester has a much larger percentage of teachers with advanced degrees than most places.
From a similar thread at the Long Island forum:
Quote:
Originally Posted by wondertrev
The Education master's degree isn't taken seriously by anyone in academia. The undergrads ain't too bright (lowest SAT scores on most campuses),so most SUNY schools don't even have a GRE requirement. (Yes, I teach at SUNY, and have taught in the education dept).
It's something the unions instituted to prevent competition from outside workers. You could be a former NASA physicist with teaching experience and awards from teaching in other states, but w/o an M.Ed, the district is going to hire some bimbo with 12 hours of math classes and a masters degree in social justice and bulletin board making.
Your source is someone on Long Island? Impressive. Anyone who thinks that SAT scores indicate anything isn't worth quoting. There are some tremendous masters in education programs and some poor ones. Same can be said for law or anything else. The two schools I mentioned produce a lot of Westchester teachers and are beyond reproach.
Yup, the same "Lawn Guyland" whose school districts outperform Westchester County's school districts and whose teachers and administrators get paid more money than Westchester County's teachers and administrators. That "Lawn Guyland".
Yup, the same "Lawn Guyland" whose school districts outperform Westchester County's school districts and whose teachers and administrators get paid more money than Westchester County's teachers and administrators. That "Lawn Guyland".
The even higher teacher salaries must be why the schools "outperform" ours.
The even higher teacher salaries must be why the schools "outperform" ours.
You don't think it's because "Lawn Guyland" unions are better organized than Westchester unions or that "Lawn Guyland" school boards are bigger wusses than Westchester school boards?
You don't think it's because "Lawn Guyland" unions are better organized than Westchester unions or that "Lawn Guyland" school boards are bigger wusses than Westchester school boards?
What do you mean? LI schools "outperform" ours because they have better unions? I don't put any weight in test scores, so "outperforming" doesn't mean anything to me.
I don't think either of us is actually saying anything, Walter.
EXACTLY!!!! Westchester schools do a far better job of attracting and retaining high quality teachers because (in large part) they have higher than average pay, especially for veterans. I've never suggested there should be raises, God forbid. I'm arguing for maintaining the current pay --but only for the very best veteran teachers. The point is that if you reduce pay, you reduce the schools' ability to attract and retain those top-notch people.
As for your other comments, I'm not taking it personally either, I'm just bored and I feel like we're both repeating ourselves now. Although I do get p-d off when people diss teachers. I taught for years and it is a hell of a job. And, yes, publishing is low-paid for New York standards--but your numbers for educational publishing are way off (at least for the NYC area). The lowest starting salary for an editor with any teaching experience is over 50K, usually closer to 75K.
The problem with your ridiculous argument is that you keep saying that they need to pay the best teachers 200k in order to reward and retain them. You fail to acknowledge that you don't get that money by being the best in this system, you get it by being there for a number of years. These are opposite and conflicting ideas from my observation. The best teachers are not necessarily the more senior teachers. I would argue that they are usually the lazy ones sitting around and not giving a hoot because they know they can't be fired due to the last in first out rules.
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