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Old 10-04-2010, 09:52 AM
 
4,465 posts, read 7,336,170 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NicePolishBoy View Post
To be completely serious, the founding fathers were diverse in opinion. Some would be opposed to such oversight, and others for it.
Remember that the Founding fathers were a bunch of upper class business types/slave owners from the eastern Seaboard; they envisioned a land of small farmers/slave-filled plantations- stretching from the Atlantic to The Pacific- although they wern't too sure where the latter was.

They were ignorant of even basic Science and Geography(that 40 acres per family didn't even work in Nebraska, muchless Arizona), and therefore are- and should be- looked upon as Historical figures, and nothing more.
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Old 10-05-2010, 12:46 AM
 
Location: Upper Midwest
1,878 posts, read 4,011,898 times
Reputation: 1903
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadgerGrl View Post
The founding fathers would laugh if they saw the level of government meddling in our daily, PERSONAL lives today.
Times have changed. People didn't think of the environment back then. But if the founding fathers had been aware, I'm sure they would've cared.
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Old 10-05-2010, 09:00 AM
 
164 posts, read 511,415 times
Reputation: 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnesconsinite View Post
Times have changed. People didn't think of the environment back then. But if the founding fathers had been aware, I'm sure they would've cared.
They cared about limited government and individual freedom, not a government that intereferes with people's everyday lives. It's a slippery slope that unfortunately this country is already on, to allow government more and more control over our lives. I hope your children or grandchildren will enjoy being told what products to buy, where to live, how much their home should cost, what profession they should go into, how much they should earn at said profession, what car to drive and what fuel it should use, when they deserve healthcare and how much they are allowed to spend based on whatever condition they have, etc. Our liberties are slowly being eaten away at and citizens are thrilled about it b/c they believe the government is trying to actually help them! When folks like you guys finally come to this realization, it will be too late, b/c once the government has control over an aspect of your life, you will never regain that control. It's unfortunate that you drag the rest of us down with you.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it (only where the gov't says you are allowed to, of course.)
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Old 10-05-2010, 09:15 AM
 
Location: Upper Midwest
1,878 posts, read 4,011,898 times
Reputation: 1903
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadgerGrl View Post
They cared about limited government and individual freedom, not a government that intereferes with people's everyday lives. It's a slippery slope that unfortunately this country is already on, to allow government more and more control over our lives. I hope your children or grandchildren will enjoy being told what products to buy, where to live, how much their home should cost, what profession they should go into, how much they should earn at said profession, what car to drive and what fuel it should use, when they deserve healthcare and how much they are allowed to spend based on whatever condition they have, etc. Our liberties are slowly being eaten away at and citizens are thrilled about it b/c they believe the government is trying to actually help them! When folks like you guys finally come to this realization, it will be too late, b/c once the government has control over an aspect of your life, you will never regain that control. It's unfortunate that you drag the rest of us down with you.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it (only where the gov't says you are allowed to, of course.)
I don't smoke.
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Old 10-05-2010, 09:21 PM
 
2,542 posts, read 6,334,435 times
Reputation: 2618
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadgerGrl View Post
They cared about limited government and individual freedom, not a government that intereferes with people's everyday lives. It's a slippery slope that unfortunately this country is already on, to allow government more and more control over our lives. I hope your children or grandchildren will enjoy being told what products to buy, where to live, how much their home should cost, what profession they should go into, how much they should earn at said profession, what car to drive and what fuel it should use, when they deserve healthcare and how much they are allowed to spend based on whatever condition they have, etc. Our liberties are slowly being eaten away at and citizens are thrilled about it b/c they believe the government is trying to actually help them! When folks like you guys finally come to this realization, it will be too late, b/c once the government has control over an aspect of your life, you will never regain that control. It's unfortunate that you drag the rest of us down with you.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it (only where the gov't says you are allowed to, of course.)
But it is okay to give our children and grandchildren polluted water, poisoned air, dead soil? When do your "rights" deny me mine? Or do you not care about my rights to clean drinking water or air that doesn't give me asthma? Perhaps you only care about what you think are your rights? The constitution does not give us the right to spot-free glasses. The original constitution did not forsee a time when the community resources (water, air, soil) could be poisoned by a single company or enmasse by an every day product originally produced with toxins unknowingly.

By the way, back on track of the original issue, I have extremely hard water here in the mountains of Arizona. My glasses became very cloudy and dirty looking. I found "Lemi Shine" in Walmart. It comes in a yellow plastic bottle by the Jet Dry. It works miracles (Jet Dry didn't do a thing). I use it about once a week now. And it doesn't contain phosphates.

Last edited by crazyme4878; 10-05-2010 at 09:31 PM..
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Old 10-05-2010, 10:55 PM
 
Location: 112 Ocean Avenue
5,706 posts, read 8,584,506 times
Reputation: 8909
Just use paper plates, paper cups, and plastic utensils.

No fuss. No muss.
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Old 10-06-2010, 07:54 AM
 
164 posts, read 511,415 times
Reputation: 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyme4878 View Post
But it is okay to give our children and grandchildren polluted water, poisoned air, dead soil? When do your "rights" deny me mine? Or do you not care about my rights to clean drinking water or air that doesn't give me asthma? Perhaps you only care about what you think are your rights? The constitution does not give us the right to spot-free glasses. The original constitution did not forsee a time when the community resources (water, air, soil) could be poisoned by a single company or enmasse by an every day product originally produced with toxins unknowingly.

By the way, back on track of the original issue, I have extremely hard water here in the mountains of Arizona. My glasses became very cloudy and dirty looking. I found "Lemi Shine" in Walmart. It comes in a yellow plastic bottle by the Jet Dry. It works miracles (Jet Dry didn't do a thing). I use it about once a week now. And it doesn't contain phosphates.
I did not say that the end result (clean water) was not worth an effort, both for ourselves and future generations. But thanks for putting words in my mouth, really appreciate that. I am saying that the means of doing so are flawed--to make new laws every day that further restrict personal liberties is wrong. Why does every issue require more laws & regulation? If phosphates are so bad, why don't detergent manufacturers self-regulate and simply not make them available? Why does everything have to require government intervention? B/c that gives the gov't more control over our lives, and someday we will reach the point where we can do nothing for ourselves, everything will require gov't approval or assistance. I like thinking for myself, and I'm sure you all do too.
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Old 10-06-2010, 08:11 AM
 
Location: East Side Milwaukee
711 posts, read 1,536,141 times
Reputation: 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadgerGrl View Post
Why does every issue require more laws & regulation? If phosphates are so bad, why don't detergent manufacturers self-regulate and simply not make them available?
Haha, really? They won't self-regulate because there is always a company that says "If I ignore the environmental problems, there will always be people too ignorant or ambivalent to notice. I will profit from that."

Then, the rest of the companies lose sales and start using phosphates again.

That's why gov't is needed to protect the rights of everyone else that doesn't want their water polluted.
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Old 10-06-2010, 08:22 AM
 
113 posts, read 284,663 times
Reputation: 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadgerGrl View Post
If phosphates are so bad, why don't detergent manufacturers self-regulate and simply not make them available? Why does everything have to require government intervention?
What possible incentive would a company have to self regulate? Regulations, while you may abhor them, serve the very real purpose of putting a legal and economic price on polluting water. Otherwise there is no incentive to change behavior. People and corporations rarely do the right thing unless there is financial reason to do so. That is pure free market economics. This is an example of where the free market fails and an outside force needs to intervene.
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Old 10-06-2010, 11:52 AM
 
164 posts, read 511,415 times
Reputation: 130
No one is addressing my overall point, so I see no reason to keep trying to restate it in plain English. Hey, today I noticed the word 'phosphate' on the front of my bottle of Listerine. There ought to be a law!

Remember, sometimes the results of so-called good intentions are no better than the issue they intended to resolve. Someone mentioned DDT...ok, so now there are more bald eagles flying around, but at a price of many more human deaths due to malaria. Of course we see the eagles here in the US and not the victims of malaria, so out of sight, out of mind I suppose. The war on poverty has managed to accomplish the goal of keeping generations of poor just that--poor. More ppl collect food stamps than paychecks now, and that's a big problem when the takers outnumber the producers (who is John Galt, btw?) Laws and regulations created with good intentions and warm, fuzzy feelings do not necessarily bring about good results. I'M NOT SAYING the phosphate ban (only in dish detergent, apparently) will not produce clean sparkly water, just that every good intention does not always bring about good results.

Ok, I said I wouldn't try again to make my point but I changed my mind. You may now continue to tell me how phosphates ruin the water and we need gov't to tell us what to do.
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