Paul Ryan SUCKS for America (Denmark, Wells: crime, hotel, school)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The left is playing Identity politics at it's worst.
The left constantly argues that this group or that group is a "victim".
That's partly because the left in the U.S. has become an umbrella group consisting of many different groups, including minorities who have indeed been victimized. It may not be fair, but the conservatives are generally seen as representative of rich, privileged people who are largely insensitive to minority lives.
Well, with one major exception: many conservative Caucasians, including many religious (usually Protestant or Protestant-legacy) white conservatives have been playing the "victim" card. If one talks about the historic and systematic racism, for example, that whites have traditionally exercised on racial and ethnic minorities, nowadays you're sure to hear such a conservative respond with how "racist" some minorities are now-- as if the two models of "racism" ("victimization") were historically and currently equal in nature, power, and scope.
Quote:
For some reason, the left thinks it's good for their brand to do this and yes, it does get them MSM news coverage. It seldom reflects reality though.
It reflects a reality, but everyone lives in such a bubble, that few care to cross lines and truly see the other sides.
Quote:
The fact that the majority of populations from these seven failed nation states are Muslim is a side note. It is not a main issue.
In some ways, this is correct. These populations had been pre-selected by the Obama administration (beginning around 2011 until 2015/2016) for scrutiny. But the Obama administration focused on extreme vetting, visa investigations, and other maneuvers that did not, for the most part, constitute a travel ban. Trump moved beyond Obama's reach, and (at least initially) his ban included permanent residents/green card holders and other statuses that were not all-out banned under Obama. From what I understand, Trump tried--in the case of Syrians, at least--to make an exception for persecuted Christians, though some were apparently turned away in the chaos.
Though perhaps not intentional, a decree that privileges Christian over Muslim refugees is, in fact, targeting religion. Some GOP legislators commented that Trump's EO could have been proofread/vetted a bit more before being issued, so the blame has been placed more on sloppy procedure rather than on religious preference. But results are results, and we have Trump's own words that Christian refugees were privileged over Muslim refugees.
[An added edit] In Section 5b of the EO is this: «Upon the resumption of USRAP admissions, the Secretary of State, in consultation with the Secretary of Homeland Security, is further directed to make changes, to the extent permitted by law, to prioritize refugee claims made by individuals on the basis of religious-based persecution, provided that the religion of the individual is a minority religion in the individual's country of nationality. Where necessary and appropriate, the Secretaries of State and Homeland Security shall recommend legislation to the President that would assist with such prioritization.» In effect, "minority religion" in these countries is prioritized. This basically sanctions Christian refugees, for example, over Muslim refugees.
Quote:
These nations cannot vouch for people. It is just that simple. So Trump puts a 90 Day pause in place to see if a vetting process can be built. That's about it. NO melodrama- NO racism, just common sense vetting. How can one argue against such rationality, unless one is just a pure ideologue.
Some in the GOP suggested that Trump's EO could have been finessed more, to account for permanent residents, dual nationals, and other people affected by the decree. Trump's EO was very blunt and basic-- and perhaps it on its own did not contain real or intentional racism, drama, whatever--but its bluntness did not mesh well with what is a truly more complex situation. These are human lives on the line, after all.
Quote:
People from these countries have committed many heinous acts in the EU.
Maybe US has just been lucky to date or we are not told what is really happening by MSM because it would violate their narrative.
This is why a lot of people on the left are not opposed to more secure borders, rigorous vetting of refugees, and so on. But a lot of people--all over the spectrum--realize that the situation is complicated and therefore demands a more nuanced and intelligent response. Trump's EO was not nuanced or particularly intelligent, and the results show this.
Quote:
Frankly the left needs to rethink it's brand. Aside form some coastal areas, the left is dieing out as the country both ages and reflects on the failures of Obama and Progressivism. Thanks to bad branding - 1000's of formerly Democrat seats across this nation are now safely in Republican hands.
It is something for you dudes to think about.
The Left is actually quite vibrant--not just on the Coasts, but also in parts of the interior. But it's the younger people inland who carry the torch of progressivism: the older, more conservative folks have better voting records and are more active in civic life, but they are ageing and will eventually die off. And no, the young progressives and semi-progressives (libertarian-minded people, etc.) are not all mere college students who haven't experienced the real world, etc. They are people who understand that this is not 1950, that it really doesn't take a whole lot to be kind to people and to groups of people, and that granting freedoms to people does not necessarily entail losing their own freedoms. In this regard, the elders can learn something from the youth.
Last edited by Empidonax; 02-01-2017 at 11:00 PM..
Apparently you've never met anybody from a country with "Universal" healthcare! I have many times from many countries INCLUDING Canada. Ask a Canadian how many times they've gone to private clinincs and paid out of pocket so they could get correct health care in a respectable amount of time!
The Left is actually quite vibrant--not just on the Coasts, but also in parts of the interior. But it's the younger people inland who carry the torch of progressivism: the older, more conservative folks have better voting records and are more active in civic life, but they are ageing and will eventually die off. And no, the young progressives and semi-progressives (libertarian-minded people, etc.) are not all mere college students who haven't experienced the real world, etc. They are people who understand that this is not 1950, that it really doesn't take a whole lot to be kind to people and to groups of people, and that granting freedoms to people does not necessarily entail losing their own freedoms. In this regard, the elders can learn something from the youth.
I applaud your reply to my post. It is very well reasoned and thoughtful and in many ways shows that sometimes we are not that far apart. You have a more nuanced style than me and I bet it takes you far.
I will never claim that Trump's style or persona is perfect. He definitely is thin skinned, a bit brash and does shoot from the hip too much. I do think he is a smart guy though and will learn to keep his yap shut as he eventually realizes that opening it at times doesn't help his cause. OTOH maybe he can't help himself.
I do take issue with your belief that the left is vibrant. LOUD-yes; vibrant - NO. I hear of no new ideas and they just continue trotting out same old chants and burning down their own places (aka - Berkely last night).
The assumption above is that people don't change. For the most part people DO change as they age.
The hippies of the 60's are the conservative retirees of today.
This phenomena is true for the majority of folks and will not change.
I think it was Churchill who said: "If your a conservative at 20, you have no heart; however if your a liberal at 40; you have no brain."
Further, all people in their 20's today have never lived in a good economy (3-5% GDP growth). They don't know the potential of a working economy. Should Trump get a multi year economic engine running, these folks will gladly drop the lefty banter and enjoy making money, living a good life and voting Republican for the rest of their lives.
I think it was Churchill who said: "If your a conservative at 20, you have no heart; however if your a liberal at 40; you have no brain."
I have known about this quote for decades, and kept waiting for the conservative thing to happen. It never did. I think the quote was made by a conservative trying to justify his position. So I adapted it at one point to "If you're a conservative at 20, you have no heart; if you're a conservative at 40, you still have no heart (or money has become more important to you than your heart.)"
I do take issue with your belief that the left is vibrant. LOUD-yes; vibrant - NO. I hear of no new ideas and they just continue trotting out same old chants and burning down their own places (aka - Berkely last night).
The assumption above is that people don't change. For the most part people DO change as they age.
The hippies of the 60's are the conservative retirees of today.
This phenomena is true for the majority of folks and will not change.
There really aren't too many "new" ideas among liberals and conservatives. Much of what the liberals have been clamoring for has been around (in other countries) for many years, and much of what the conservatives want to do is a rehash mix of Reagan, Goldwater, and pre-FDR politics.
I agree that many on the left are loud, but don't let that mask the "silent leftist" demographic. Many fairly average people who happen to be leftists just don't see threats from gay marriage, advancement of women, protection of the environment, trust in science, and so on. This is in large part due to the decline of traditional religious (Christian) affiliation among today's youth.
Quote:
I think it was Churchill who said: "If your a conservative at 20, you have no heart; however if your a liberal at 40; you have no brain."
Interesting quote, but did Churchill really say it (or anything similar)?
I'm fairly liberal and over 50, so I guess I need yet another body part. Dang, getting old is expensive.
Quote:
Further, all people in their 20's today have never lived in a good economy (3-5% GDP growth). They don't know the potential of a working economy. Should Trump get a multi year economic engine running, these folks will gladly drop the lefty banter and enjoy making money, living a good life and voting Republican for the rest of their lives.
I have no doubt that some will do this, as it's happened in previous generations. The converse will happen, too, as with my father: a staunch "pull yourself by your bootstraps" Republican for years until he retired, and then he started to meet and read more about other people. He remained a Republican by affiliation, but voted Democrat.
But even if a jumping economy transforms some liberal youths and compels them to become more conservative, I doubt most will just make a 180 degree turn in that regard. Social liberal attitudes will probably remain in place, and those who become more fiscally conservative will find a way to square their new financial reality with their social idealism. That's what has happened pretty much every generation for centuries.
The assumption above is that people don't change. For the most part people DO change as they age.
The hippies of the 60's are the conservative retirees of today.
This phenomena is true for the majority of folks and will not change.
I don't believe your assumption. I know a lot of people who were hippies - my sisters and their husbands, lots of friends, people I met later that have a hippy history - and they are all still liberals. I have some cousins (on different sides of the family) whose families were conservative and who were pretty conservative when they were young. And guess what? They remain conservatives. I'm not saying that people don't change. Some do. But I think that by the time we are teenagers, our outlook on the world is pretty much in place. So while some people may change when exposed to different points of view or influences, my experience is that with most people, the general political orientation doesn't change very much.
You guys elected Stott, you saw what he did and you elected him again!
Scott, blocked federal monies in order to ensure ACA would be a mess in his state...
In WA I can buy good insurance for 500 a month for a family of four... and we have some pre existing issues along with some hereditary issues
Not basic insurance good insurance.
ACA works when the state works to make it work and takes the federal money...
It fails when republicans set out to ensure it fails in their home states..
Btw I don't believe you are really paying almost ten thousand a year and you are healthy you g and single... if you are most likely you need to get help clearly you did not get the best deal going as my brother in wi pays vastly less.
I can tell you plenty of stories where American tourists visit countries with single payer care and got sick or injured. They Go to a hospital worried about how it works and what they will pay, but never get asked for an insurance card and leave without paying a penny, even after a similar episode here, with insurance would have cost them thousands out of pocket.
Count me in the group that says our system is trash. Obama made it slightly less terrible but it is still awful.
I don't believe your assumption. I know a lot of people who were hippies - my sisters and their husbands, lots of friends, people I met later that have a hippy history - and they are all still liberals. I have some cousins (on different sides of the family) whose families were conservative and who were pretty conservative when they were young. And guess what? They remain conservatives. I'm not saying that people don't change. Some do. But I think that by the time we are teenagers, our outlook on the world is pretty much in place. So while some people may change when exposed to different points of view or influences, my experience is that with most people, the general political orientation doesn't change very much.
I would say that a large number of people up until college age have their political views originate from their parents, depending somewhat on what the status of their relationship of their parents is. If they attend college, they certainly think more for themselves and are exposed to many more viewpoints. If a change occurs, it is likely to be then or shortly thereafter.
In my case, I started in a conservative, religious household, but partisan politics was extremely irritating to me. I looked at the newspaper section that (back then) showed how local representatives voted, and was annoyed by the fact that nearly every single one went along party lines. So I started out leaning conservative with an anti incumbent bias.
After going to college and taking several economics courses and other electives, it became very clear why things are the way they are, and which side seemed to have the facts and research on their side the majority of the time. I did stay fairly independent until my late 20s, but the Bush admin changed that, probably permanently. Having religion jammed down my throat and later gaining the freedom to get away from it played a role in my shift as well.
To me that Churchill quote represents the closed mindedness of conservatives. They indeed are the ones in the bubble with their own sources of news and alternative facts, but are largely incapable of independent thinking.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
