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Why is that alarming? It makes me proud of my home state. Think about it - it is possible if WI would have been dumb enough to vote for Hillary, she might be President. [.
Both parties chose mediocre candidates. Many registered Democrats and Republicans voted for third-party candidates (i.e. Jill Stein and Gary Johnson) in WI, which meant the electoral vote had a good chance of going to either Clinton or Trump. Plus, Trump won slightly fewer votes than Romney. I wasn't very surprised when Trump won WI for that reason - I knew many were going to vote 3rd party.
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Originally Posted by ccjarider
This is a very articulate and well written post where you use facts and logic to lay out a good argument for why Walker could lose his reelection bid. Then you go and throw it all away with that silly "Republicans are racists and corrupt" comment. That's too bad.
I'm sorry if I offended you, but racism has been my experience with Republicans. People's life experiences tend to shape their political views, don't they?
[quote=InnovativeAmerican;53145782]
BTW I used to be one of those token African-American Republicans until I realized just how racist and corrupt the Republican Party is./quote]
And in the end, always play the race card if you have nothing else. Unbelievable.....
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
41,938 posts, read 36,935,179 times
Reputation: 40635
"If you have nothing else" as if racism isn't more than enough.
"Race Card" is the one of the biggest dog whistles that is out there. You know the person is in the wrong if they start saying someone is "playing the race card". It's right up there with people that use "PC" and "SJW" as pejoratives; they're just screaming I'm a freaking awful person.
Both parties chose mediocre candidates. Many registered Democrats and Republicans voted for third-party candidates (i.e. Jill Stein and Gary Johnson) in WI, which meant the electoral vote had a good chance of going to either Clinton or Trump. Plus, Trump won slightly fewer votes than Romney. I wasn't very surprised when Trump won WI for that reason - I knew many were going to vote 3rd party.
I'm sorry if I offended you, but racism has been my experience with Republicans. People's life experiences tend to shape their political views, don't they?
Wait- I thought you said Trump won WI because of voter suppression??? Well which one is it - 3rd party candidates or voter suppression? Here's an idea - maybe more WI voters liked his message and gave him their vote accordingly.
btw - I am not "offended" by your claim of R's being racist. Most of the majority are used to D's continuous whining about identity politics (race, sex, misogyny, trans-hate, blah blah blah). It's all you got - we get it. Timberline proves my point in the post before this one.
I hope you guys can get some real bullet points for the future to make internet debate fun again. It's getting to be boring - like shooting fish in a barrel.
And in the end, always play the race card if you have nothing else. Unbelievable.....
And by saying this, you yourself are playing a race card.
You're suggesting that contrary to whatever experience and evidence this person has had with respect to racism, it must be made up, unauthentic. Without having details about the matter, you're saying that your understanding (presumably, as a person who isn't African-American) is superior to his understanding. Why is that?
Why is it hard to believe African-Americans when they say that they've witnessed or experienced racism? Objectively, under scrutiny, not all incidents would pan out as such, but there's a possibility that some or many would. How many verifiable incidents do you need, anyhow?
If he said the same about Democrats (and there are those who have), would you have objected?
A more productive approach to challenging the person's statement would be to say that we should be careful about drawing general, universal conclusions from specific, limited experiences. But still, that's easy for some people to say. It's one thing to have the luxury of detachment and "objectivity," but another thing to have been in the midst of forceful, personal experiences that put trust to the test.
Last edited by Empidonax; 10-02-2018 at 05:55 PM..
btw - I am not "offended" by your claim of R's being racist. Most of the majority are used to D's continuous whining about identity politics (race, sex, misogyny, trans-hate, blah blah blah). It's all you got - we get it. Timberline proves my point in the post before this one.
Actually, Timberline makes a good point.
There are certainly knee-jerk liberals who unthinkingly appeal to identity politics in order to explain the world and justify a variety of actions, but there have also arisen knee-jerk conservatives who dismiss identity politics because caring about race, sex, gender, etc. is considered a "liberal" thing.
Unfortunately, people on both sides of the divide do a lot of talking, but don't listen very well.
And as far as the poster's comment goes: Maybe it's erroneous to judge an entire party or group (such as Republicans, or identity politics liberals) on the basis of specific experiences, but people do tend to react out of experience.
There are certainly knee-jerk liberals who unthinkingly appeal to identity politics in order to explain the world and justify a variety of actions, but there have also arisen knee-jerk conservatives who dismiss identity politics because caring about race, sex, gender, etc. is considered a "liberal" thing.
Unfortunately, people on both sides of the divide do a lot of talking, but don't listen very well.
And as far as the poster's comment goes: Maybe it's erroneous to judge an entire party or group (such as Republicans, or identity politics liberals) on the basis of specific experiences, but people do tend to react out of experience.
I think there are many people who are willing to listen. I thought the Innovative American post as to why Walker has a good chance to lose was well written and articulate. If you understand what I was telling him (I think it's a him) is - he likely gave it all away by ending with the throw away comment about R's being "racists". That's too bad for him - no one else. His message got lost.
Trump does the same thing with over the top comments and snide remarks. It becomes all people key on. He has enough enemies already - why give them the unforced errors? If one is objective, he says a lot of good things but he oftentimes he throws it all away.
I think there are many people who are willing to listen. I thought the Innovative American post as to why Walker has a good chance to lose was well written and articulate. If you understand what I was telling him (I think it's a him) is - he likely gave it all away by ending with the throw away comment about R's being "racists". That's too bad for him - no one else. His message got lost.
Trump does the same thing with over the top comments and snide remarks. It becomes all people key on. He has enough enemies already - why give them the unforced errors? If one is objective, he says a lot of good things but he oftentimes he throws it all away.
I'm glad you thought my post was well-written, but I will not apologize for veering off topic in my Scott Walker post.
How anybody can support Trump anymore is beyond me. What has happened to America? I weep for my children's future. Even young people are being brainwashed by the alt-right movement, yet they will be the backbone of America's future. When I went to Scotland over the summer, I had a plethora of locals ask me "What was America thinking?" in reference to Trump's presidency. We are truly a laughingstock across the globe, and Trump's presidency has made me rule out ever voting for another Republican and Kavanaugh's confirmation just reinforces that fact. Even when I went to Ireland over the summer, people kept asking me, "What is wrong with you Americans?" I wish this weren't true, but it simply is. If you like America being a laughingstock because of YOUR savior in-chief, then kudos to you. Obama wasn't the best president, but he had far more dignity in his little finger than Trump. I voted for him twice primarily because he cared enough about his country to have enough dignity and respect for his country and did not sell us out to Russia. He was also FAR more charismatic and articulate - Trump's language is reminiscent of a 10 year old, and he can't even go a minute without insulting people, but I guess you like that. And the sexist comments (oops, that makes me a snowflake, too) Trump made this past week were appalling as someone who has a wife and two daughters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Empidonax
Actually, Timberline makes a good point.
There are certainly knee-jerk liberals who unthinkingly appeal to identity politics in order to explain the world and justify a variety of actions, but there have also arisen knee-jerk conservatives who dismiss identity politics because caring about race, sex, gender, etc. is considered a "liberal" thing.
Unfortunately, people on both sides of the divide do a lot of talking, but don't listen very well.
And as far as the poster's comment goes: Maybe it's erroneous to judge an entire party or group (such as Republicans, or identity politics liberals) on the basis of specific experiences, but people do tend to react out of experience.
The reason why people like ccjarider think racism shouldn't the basis of any conversation is because the alt-right movement appeals to angry white men like himself. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but it's simply true, and I'm glad well-meaning whites like you and Timberline still exist in this day and age. People like him now have a platform and can unashamedly express their contempt for marginalized communities and dismiss any kind of bigotry (oops, I can't say that because that makes me a "snowflake" who is playing the quintessential "black victim card").
I am angry and hope the blue wave sweeps not only Wisconsin next month, but this ENTIRE country and cleanse it of THE mess Trump and the GOP-dominated House and Senate have left. The GOP has shown me and many others their true colors. The nightmare for the Republican Party is just beginning. The American people will no longer stand for them representing the interests of deplorable men. Deplorable whether it be for greedy capitalism, tax cheating, bank fraud, racism, sexual assault, misogyny, obstruction of justice, etc. The time is now for a party and leadership that will represent the interests of the citizenry as a whole, not just those of a deplorable, privileged few. We're witnessing the end of integrity and the rule of law. I hope you and Timberline remember to vote next month!
Last edited by InnovativeAmerican; 10-07-2018 at 04:57 PM..
I'm glad you thought my post was well-written, but I will not apologize for veering off topic in my Scott Walker post.
How anybody can support Trump anymore is beyond me. What has happened to America? I weep for my children's future. Even young people are being brainwashed by the alt-right movement, yet they will be the backbone of America's future. When I went to Scotland over the summer, I had a plethora of locals ask me "What was America thinking?" in reference to Trump's presidency. We are truly a laughingstock across the globe, and Trump's presidency has made me rule out ever voting for another Republican and Kavanaugh's confirmation just reinforces that fact. Even when I went to Ireland over the summer, people kept asking me, "What is wrong with you Americans?" I wish this weren't true, but it simply is. If you like America being a laughingstock because of YOUR savior in-chief, then kudos to you. Obama wasn't the best president, but he had far more dignity in his little finger than Trump. I voted for him twice primarily because he cared enough about his country to have enough dignity and respect for his country and did not sell us out to Russia. He was also FAR more charismatic and articulate - Trump's language is reminiscent of a 10 year old, and he can't even go a minute without insulting people, but I guess you like that. And the sexist comments (oops, that makes me a snowflake, too) Trump made this past week were appalling as someone who has a wife and two daughters.
The reason why people like ccjarider think racism shouldn't the basis of any conversation is because the alt-right movement appeals to angry white men like himself. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but it's simply true, and I'm glad well-meaning whites like you and Timberline still exist in this day and age. People like him now have a platform and can unashamedly express their contempt for marginalized communities and dismiss any kind of bigotry (oops, I can't say that because that makes me a "snowflake" who is playing the quintessential "black victim card").
I am angry and hope the blue wave sweeps not only Wisconsin next month, but this ENTIRE country and cleanse it of THE mess Trump and the GOP-dominated House and Senate have left. The GOP has shown me and many others their true colors. The nightmare for the Republican Party is just beginning. The American people will no longer stand for them representing the interests of deplorable men. Deplorable whether it be for greedy capitalism, tax cheating, bank fraud, racism, sexual assault, misogyny, obstruction of justice, etc. The time is now for a party and leadership that will represent the interests of the citizenry as a whole, not just those of a deplorable, privileged few. We're witnessing the end of integrity and the rule of law. I hope you and Timberline remember to vote next month!
You are an unhappy man aren't you?
I am finding the crazy, emotional, uncivil rhetoric of people interesting. I am optimistic about it. It shows that conservative principles are making a difference and the few remaining leftists are in an absolute total freak out mode now. That is a good thing. The louder the left is whining, the better the direction America is heading.
I am trying to help you be better at getting your points across. I never said Racism is not a valid topic - It is just not the focal point of almost every issue like you sometimes want to claim. It's a cop out when used so much. Real acts of racism get lost in the noise. Drop the "racism" default and you will have more success.
The same thing just happened with the Me Too movement. It's gonna be dead now. You can thank your Democrat leaders for that reality.
I completely agree that Trump is not articulate. Who cares??? Is that what you consider the most consequential attribute of a President? Being able to speak eloquently?? Obama was more artful at speaking eloquent deception but he never said ANYTHING of consequence and he certainly DID nothing of consequence. He turned loose thousands of un-elected bureaucrats, weaponized the US gov't against it's own citizenry and let bad actors all over the world get the better of him. He hated business, the backbone of any country's economy. In short, he was a terrible President and a terrible purveyor of the Constitution.
Trump's success's in just two yrs make Obama look like the piker he is.
You make some pretty crazy allegations in this post. You now claim all R's are deplorable and stand for racism, misogyny, sexual assault, obstruction of justice - on and on. I assume you are just being emotional and don't really believe that. There is enough history to show that people are just people and both parties have great examples of creepiness, illegality and bad judgement. No party has a lock on corruption.
Are you actually saying only through strong Democrat held government can Nirvana be achieved??
Be careful what you wish for.
If you know - please enlighten us with the great ideas the Democrats in WI or the Country are putting forth to make WI and America a better place. From what I can tell, there is little to no platform other than: "GET RID OF THE BAD TRUMP REPUBLICANS."
I will state that perhaps its an adequate message and it may be all they need to succeed. It seems to be good enough for you.
You are an unhappy man aren't you?
I am finding the crazy, emotional, uncivil rhetoric of people interesting. I am optimistic about it. It shows that conservative principles are making a difference and the few remaining leftists are in an absolute total freak out mode now. That is a good thing. The louder the left is whining, the better the direction America is heading.
Conservative principles are making a difference.
People are losing health insurance due to the GOP neglect of the ACA. The deficit now is poised to skyrocket well above and beyond Obama's deficit. People who already have lots of money can make even more money that will not "trickle down." Negative attitudes about cities and "those people who live in them" have helped ongoing segregation trends in some areas. The conservatives' misunderstanding of science is, among other things, "making a difference" in promoting global warming. Conservative Christianity is making sure that more people think that Jesus rode dinosaurs way back when.
Yep, lots of great strides forward.
It's true that many on the left are "whining," but the conservatives are also. The left is just more vocal and visible about it. Conservatives tend to make themselves heard more on talk radio, Faux News, internet forums, and stuff like that.
Don't kid yourself: All of the whining that the cons did about Obama. All of the whining about creating a proper health care system in the U.S. All of the whining about gays and lesbians who just want to marry the people they love, or who want to buy a stupid cake. All of the whining about blacks and other minorities who raise their voices or take a knee. All of the whining about women who want to control their own bodies.
I love that you think there are a "few remaining leftists." If that's the case, then all of their "whining" shouldn't bother you so much.
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I am trying to help you be better at getting your points across. I never said Racism is not a valid topic - It is just not the focal point of almost every issue like you sometimes want to claim. It's a cop out when used so much. Real acts of racism get lost in the noise. Drop the "racism" default and you will have more success.
In other words: "Even though you're black and have experiences that I will never be subjected to and that I will never be able to fathom, your experiences are not entirely valid, and racism isn't as bad as you think it is. I may not be black, but I certainly don't see so much racism, so get over it."
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The same thing just happened with the Me Too movement. It's gonna be dead now. You can thank your Democrat leaders for that reality.
No, it won't be dead. More conservatives will stop listening, though.
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I completely agree that Trump is not articulate. Who cares??? Is that what you consider the most consequential attribute of a President? Being able to speak eloquently??
I can't speak for Innovative, but to me, it isn't just about Trump being inarticulate.
It's about his divisive rhetoric, mocking people in public, childishly imitating them, and doing other things along these lines to appeal to the savage instincts of his base. Anyone who doesn't see this is in a bubble, isn't paying attention, or is dishonest.
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Obama was more artful at speaking eloquent deception but he never said ANYTHING of consequence and he certainly DID nothing of consequence. He turned loose thousands of un-elected bureaucrats, weaponized the US gov't against it's own citizenry and let bad actors all over the world get the better of him. He hated business, the backbone of any country's economy. In short, he was a terrible President and a terrible purveyor of the Constitution.
Trump's success's in just two yrs make Obama look like the piker he is.
Of course, for conservatives, not all of these things are "accomplishments." But for people on the left, there's a lot to celebrate.
Objectively, Trump has also had some accomplishments in his two years in office. He presided over two Supreme Court confirmations, a tax overhaul occurred under his watch, and he's given hope to millions of Christian evangelicals, dispossessed Middle America whites, and lots of "very fine people" in the Charlottesville, VA area.
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There is enough history to show that people are just people and both parties have great examples of creepiness, illegality and bad judgement. No party has a lock on corruption.
Agreed.
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If you know - please enlighten us with the great ideas the Democrats in WI or the Country are putting forth to make WI and America a better place. From what I can tell, there is little to no platform other than: "GET RID OF THE BAD TRUMP REPUBLICANS."
You seriously don't understand what leftists (not just Dems) really stand for and work toward? Visit just about any leftist politician or candidate's webpage and do some reading.
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