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Old 10-25-2020, 12:49 PM
 
Location: Florida
3,133 posts, read 2,254,904 times
Reputation: 9163

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Businesses that refuse to automate get left behind to fight over the crumbs. I imagine the very first assembly lines were met with the same contempt that today’s robotic applications are meeting in some circles. Guess what would have happened if industry had refused to keep raising the bar of automation.
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Old 10-25-2020, 01:45 PM
 
10,609 posts, read 5,643,008 times
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Yet another "AI will cause the sky to fall" thread.

This brings to mind the classic story of the invention of the automatic knitting machine back in the 16th Century. At a time when technology in the textile industry meant spinning wheels and hand looms, clergyman William Lee invented a machine that could knit stockings.

In 1589, Lee applied for a Royal Patent for his knitting machine. Queen Elizabeth I of England was extremely alarmed and said:

Quote:
"Consider thou what the invention [of the automatic knitting machine] would do to my poor subjects," she pointed out. "It would assuredly bring them to ruin by depriving them of employment and thus make them beggars.”
The above is from "History of the Framework Knitters" written by Gravenor Henson back in 1831 in England. Hensen's thesis was that hosiery, lace and all other industries must be regulated by the government so as to maintain a decent living standard for the workers and fair conditions of trade, that British industries must be protected from direct foreign competition and, more particularly, from industrial espionage, migration of skilled workmen to other countries, and export of innovative machinery such as the knitting machine.

Clearly, the world didn't quite turn out the way they feared. As a direct result of that innovation, productivity went up, GDP went up, the standard of living went up, and there was no widespread unemployment or starvation as a result of automatic weaving and knitting machines. Just the opposite, of course: more people were raised out of abject poverty as a result of the disruption as far more jobs were created than destroyed.

***

It also brings to mind the story of the greatest crisis the planet had ever known. No, not the Spanish Flu Pandemic of 1918 - the Great Manure Crisis of 1894.

Nineteenth-century cities depended on thousands of horses for their daily functioning. All transportation, whether of goods or people, was drawn by horses. London in 1900 had 11,000 taxi cabs, all horse-powered. There were also several thousand buses, each of which required 12 horses per day, a total of more than 50,000 horses. There were countless carts, drays, and wagons, all horse-powered and all working constantly to deliver the goods needed by the rapidly growing population of what was then the largest city in the world. Similar figures exist for any great city of the time.

The problem of course was that all these horses produced huge amounts of manure. A horse will produce between 15 and 35 pounds of manure per day. In New York in 1900, the population of 100,000 horses produced over 2.5 Million pounds of horse manure per day, all of which had to be swept up and disposed of. What do you do with all the manure?

Businesses were formed to scoop poop. You hire men to scoop and sweep 2.5 million pounds of manure and even more straw soaked in 250,000 gallons of horse urine each day, and load it into carts pulled by yet more horses to Take It Elsewhere.

The problem seemed to have no solution. The larger and richer that cities became, the more horses they needed to function. The more horses, the more manure. Futurists of 130 years ago estimated that by 1950 every street in London would be buried under nine feet of manure. Moreover, all these horses had to be stabled, which used up ever-larger areas of increasingly valuable land. And as the number of horses grew, ever-more land had to be devoted to producing hay and grain to feed them (rather than producing food for people), and this had to be brought into cities and distributed—by yet more horse-drawn vehicles.

It seemed that urban civilization was doomed and would fall under the weight of all that manure (or drown in the nearly 2.5 gallons of urine each and every horse produced per day).

In 1898 the first international urban-planning conference convened in New York; one of its goals was to figure out what to do about all the horse manure. The conference was abandoned after three days, instead of the scheduled ten, because none of the delegates could see any solution to the growing crisis posed by urban horses, manure and urine.

Obviously, the trend that couldn't go on forever -- and, well, it didn't.

The invention of the internal combustion engine and commercialization of the automobile changed all that by supplanting the need for horses.

But what about all those unemployed pooper scoopers? And unemployed stable-hands for the fleet of hundreds of thousands of horses worldwide? Wouldn't they be turned into beggars? Would they sit around and whine?

They all transitioned to work that has higher value than scooping poop and warehousing horses. The world became better. Productivity went up, GDP went up, the standard of living went up, and there was no widespread unemployment or starvation as a result of the transition from horse-powered transportation to internal combustion-powered transportation.

****
Accurately forecasting decades into the future is exceedingly difficult.

For example, back in 1900, about 60% of the US population was directly involved in agriculture, farming, and ranching. Today, it is less than 4%.

Imagine that you could go back in time to 1900 & tell learned scholars, politicians, futurists, and business leaders that in far-off 2020 less than 4% of the nation's population would be directly involved in agriculture.

Then imagine you asked them, "what in the world do you think all the other people will do for a living in far-off 2020?"

Chances are none of those learned scholars and pundits would guess:
  • "network engineer,"
  • "geneticist,"
  • "web designer,"
  • "search engine optimization engineer,"
  • "industrial robot tech,"
  • "radiologist,"
  • "professional MMA fighter,"
  • "professional football player,"
  • "cinematographer,"
  • "sound engineer,"
  • "microprocessor architect,"
  • "telemarketer,"
  • "City-Data forum moderator",
  • "cryptocurrency miner",
  • "social media marketer",
  • "physical therapist",
  • "occupational therapist,"
  • "nuclear reactor technician,"
  • "solid state physicist,"
  • "white hat hacker"
  • "mortgage broker,"
  • "Facebook content censor"
  • "coronavirus vaccine designer"

-- and the like.

Everyone agrees this is the way it worked throughout history regarding technical innovation and disruptive technologies: society is better off.

Yet somehow, AI scares people (most of whom have no understanding of technology and indeed lack the capacity to spell AI). People just don't get what AI is and does. Journalists write about the dangers of AI but they have zero domain knowledge and have even less subject matter expertise.[/quote]
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Old 10-26-2020, 10:41 AM
 
5,317 posts, read 3,224,566 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RationalExpectations View Post
People just don't get what AI is and does. Journalists write about the dangers of AI but they have zero domain knowledge and have even less subject matter expertise.
Your entire post thinks that all technology is the same.

It is not the same.

There are two types of technology.

1) Technology that makes workers more productive, and thus more valuable, so their pay goes up.
2) Technology that replaces people and makes them redundant. (based on a dehumanizing philosophy)

What you've done is take 1) and talk about all the benefits (i.e. "new jobs") and then say the same thing about 2).

That's false.

AI is the second type of technology. It is used to replace people.

It is based on a dehumanizing philosophy.

It is saying that regular human intelligence is not good enough (and thus humans are not good enough, and should be devalued) AI hypers believe that people should not be allowed to thrive and prosper.

Technology is supposed to be used to benefit mankind, not be weaponized against mankind.

Watch the Twilight Zone "The Obsolete man" - that's our future with the second type of technology.



Quote:
"what in the world do you think all the other people will do for a living in far-off 2020?"
OK, let's test your theory.

Someone loses their job to the second type of technology. They must go back to school, learn something new, and try to find a job in the new field.

Then they get told "No job for you because you don't have experience."

"Why is this factory worker applying for a job as a web developer?" the hiring manager says as he tosses the applicant's resume in the garbage can, ignoring the education and skills on the resume.

Out. Of. Touch.
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Old 10-26-2020, 10:45 AM
 
5,317 posts, read 3,224,566 times
Reputation: 8240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron61 View Post
Businesses that refuse to automate get left behind to fight over the crumbs.
Depends on which type of automation. Seems you think all automation is identical.

Quote:
I imagine the very first assembly lines were met with the same contempt that today’s robotic applications are meeting
No. Those are not the same type of technology.

Assembly line made people more productive, and their pay went up. Henry Ford offered the unheard of $5/day. Wages went up nicely.

Robots are used to replace people, so those on the assembly line are now obsolete and dehumanized out of their means of earning a living and thriving.
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Old 10-26-2020, 03:04 PM
 
801 posts, read 547,389 times
Reputation: 1856
This is what always happen whenever someone predicts something will end the world..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO04VXBIS0M

..but this time is different!
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Old 11-28-2020, 04:06 PM
 
34,015 posts, read 17,045,886 times
Reputation: 17187
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasLawyer2000 View Post
This has been happening for millenia. Automation like the cotton gin is just natural progression. Bring it on.
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Old 12-01-2020, 12:14 PM
 
Location: League City
3,842 posts, read 8,266,728 times
Reputation: 5364
There are 50 billion new openings for ai or more specifically machine learning jobs. Also one of the 'hottest' jobs is data science which relies heavily on... ai. There are a million new training programs like udacity or Thinkful or even places like Coursera or EdX that teach you these skills if you don't want to go back to college. I'm not sure how effective these programs are, but the point is ai has spawned a million new job titles (self driving cars, Netflix, Uber, Facebook, agricultural machinery, pharmaceutical drug discovery, wildlife management, the security industry, etc, etc, etc all use ai) and a million new auxiliary industries that feed into learning ai. So while yes ai is killing some jobs with automation, you are missing the wayyyyy bigger picture if that is all you see. AI is generating a much, much bigger new world with new industries and new positions and the need for people to learn these new skills because adoption of AI is more easily attainable for the average business than ever before. If you have the tiniest smidge of capitalism in your blood, then it should be easy to see that businesses almost have no choice but to integrate some form of ai in order to remain competitive. It's not the end of the world. It's the explosion of a brand new one.
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Old 12-03-2020, 03:58 AM
 
Location: Yakima yes, an apartment!
8,340 posts, read 6,782,018 times
Reputation: 15130
I'm seeing people discussing two different subjects. Automation and Artificial intelligence.

The farming industry has become more productive due to automation, not AI.

Artificial Intelligence (AI) is often confused with automation, yet the two are fundamentally different. The key difference is that Artificial Intelligence mimics human intelligence decisions and actions, while automation focuses on streamlining repetitive, instructive tasks.



https://iafrikan.com/2019/05/06/the-...nd-automation/
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Old 12-03-2020, 06:35 AM
 
50,727 posts, read 36,431,973 times
Reputation: 76539
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disgustedman View Post
I'm seeing people discussing two different subjects. Automation and Artificial intelligence.

The farming industry has become more productive due to automation, not AI.

Artificial Intelligence (AI) is often confused with automation, yet the two are fundamentally different. The key difference is that Artificial Intelligence mimics human intelligence decisions and actions, while automation focuses on streamlining repetitive, instructive tasks.



https://iafrikan.com/2019/05/06/the-...nd-automation/
I agree with you. AI has problem-solving abilities. There's been news the past 2 days about AI that solved a biological mystery human scientists have been trying to solve for 50 years (something about how proteins fold, too complicated for me).

https://news.yahoo.com/one-biologys-...153900443.html

AI will be able to replace humans on tasks requiring problem solving abilities, that makes it very very different from automation and greatly expands the number of jobs it can replace. Why will we need human scientists if AI can solve in a few days what human scientists haven't been able to solve in 50 years? We are certainly not at that level yet, but as the technology continues to develop people will be surprised how many fields it effects. It will not be low level assembly jobs.
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Old 12-03-2020, 06:56 AM
 
3,560 posts, read 1,651,685 times
Reputation: 6116

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-Nz6us7DUA
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