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My perception of US-style consumerist ideology is that family is anathema and the dominant popular culture is purposely shaped to weaken it, if not destroy it, while some pay lip-service to it to soften the blow in the meantime.
Countries that have unwalkable cities usually are not family oriented. The cities are designed in a way that people commute "alone" inside their vehicles.
If a city is walkable, a person does not even need to have good social skills to make friends (or meet a significant other). This walkability also helps you keep in touch with your family.
The thing in the usa is that cities are build for vehicles, everything is so distant, and commuting by car is expensive (compared to walkable places were fast and reliable transportation options are available, and cities are more compact)
People from the usa are as good and family oriented as any other, the thing is that US cities are designed for you to be a lonely dude that is always driving everywhere.
Even to go to a bakery you need to drive.
That's why also the usa has a high rate of obesity. Unwalkable cities make people fat. I have seen fat women with pretty faces. They ain't ugly just fat, and it isnt their fault, these cities are built for you to get fat and commute alone. Soulless cities.
It is not a coincidence that the only two walkable cities of the USA have the highest quality of life. (NYC and San Francisco).
You dont need to relocate to a different country, just move to SF, NY, or Honolulu.
You could have Jim Carrey's personality, a cool guy, friendly but if you live in a place like Orlando or Raleigh (unwalkable) you will probably have less than 3 friends, a Match.com account, and your family members will only visit you during Xmas.
Countries that have unwalkable cities usually are not family oriented. The cities are designed in a way that people commute "alone" inside their vehicles.
If a city is walkable, a person does not even need to have good social skills to make friends (or meet a significant other). This walkability also helps you keep in touch with your family.
The thing in the usa is that cities are build for vehicles, everything is so distant, and commuting by car is expensive (compared to walkable places were fast and reliable transportation options are available, and cities are more compact)
People from the usa are as good and family oriented as any other, the thing is that US cities are designed for you to be a lonely dude that is always driving everywhere.
Even to go to a bakery you need to drive.
That's why also the usa has a high rate of obesity. Unwalkable cities make people fat. I have seen fat women with pretty faces. They ain't ugly just fat, and it isnt their fault, these cities are built for you to get fat and commute alone. Soulless cities.
It is not a coincidence that the only two walkable cities of the USA have the highest quality of life. (NYC and San Francisco).
You dont need to relocate to a different country, just move to SF, NY, or Honolulu.
You could have Jim Carrey's personality, a cool guy, friendly but if you live in a place like Orlando or Raleigh (unwalkable) you will probably have less than 3 friends, a Match.com account, and your family members will only visit you during Xmas.
Edu983,
I think you're making some valid points, clearly not unrelated to the weak family ties characteristic of North America (and other anglo countries too, to a certain extent) but I still think that there are other, more direct factors explaining the whole thing.
I really believe it is this mindset of "every man for himself" that contributes to overall weak family ties in the US.
Since the 1950's-60's, with the gradual shift from the marriage-centered family to the child-centered family, all sorts of troubles emerged.
As for whatever goes outside the nuclear family, the US never really had an actual extended family tradition, but grandma and the like were still somewhat of a presence pre-1950's. By contrast, modern grandparents have virtually ceased to have any influence whatsoever on the character formation of grandchildren, and their family roles are completely fuzzy and undefined.
You can also quickly tell who on this thread has had exposure to other cultures/countries outside of the U.S. and who hasn't.
As a white American guy who has been living abroad for years....one of the BIG questions I get all of the time is 'dont you miss your family?'...and me and everyone from a similar background to me, the answer is 9 times out of 10...'No, I don't'.
This concept puzzles and bewilders just about everyone who isn't from an English-speaking as their first language country (i.e. US/Canada/OZ/NZ/UK). Over here in Asia, people live with their parents and grandparents and have CLOSE relationships with them. You'll see grown adults or teenagers walking arm and arm WITH THEIR MOM! Now with American teenagers, this is simply unheard of. I would be the first to laugh if I saw this in the U.S.
That being said...living over here in Asia...I find the society to be comfortable and nice, and everyone is well-adjusted...and I really think it has a lot to do with close families and people living with parents and grandparents often until 30 or whenever they decide to get married. There is nothing negative about that. If in the US, someone was 30 and lived with their mother, and especially with their grandmother as well, he would be the butt of nearly every joke in every conversation his name came up. But over here in Asia, that is very common.
For myself, I selfishly enjoyed the fact that I have no responsibility whatsoever to my parents, and they raised me to be that way. It does give me a lot of freedom. On the other hand, it has made me think NO WAY will I ever have kids...you raise them for 18 years, and they are unthankful and just disappear...what's the point? The latter part of those 18 years, during their teenage years, they are rebellious and would be a complete nightmare, etc.
Well, now I have a kid. My wife is Asian, and I am living in Asia. I love the fact that my kid will be influenced by this kind of environment. I like when we visit my wife's relatives and my son is having the time of his life with extended family everywhere and people everywhere, all sincerely enjoying and loving spending time together. When I visit my family in the USA, everyone is working, and the kids are a hassle. All the men watch sports on TV when they get together, and the women are exhausted from cooking...and everyone walks away gossiping about how horrible that was to even be there, etc.
I remember when I first got married, and hesitant about kids. My wife always said, 'you have to have kids, who will take care of you when you get older?' That comes back to the fact that the family unit is a lifetime thing spanning all the generations in Asia. Your grandparents help raise the grandkids. They are all in the same household, so parents are actually given a bit more freedom as there are more caretakers in the house. In the same respect, the grandparents are also being taken care of, as they are taking care of the grandkids, etc. (This isn't my family, but your general family in Asia).
Now you take an American household...grandparents have their own world, and you visit them 3 days out of the year - Easter, Thanksgiving and Christmas - as long as your spouse's family aren't meeting on the same day that is. Both the parents are required to work to make house and car payments...so that means 'Little Johnnie' will be raised by babysitters or other random strangers...whenever he isn't in school. Parents will see him around 6pm for a few hours until bedtime...and on weekends...maybe if Dad isn't golfing, they can watch TV together, probably sports...but Dad is resting because Monday is another big workday, so we don't want to do too much! This basically means that 'Little Johnnie' fairly quickly develops a 'peer group' who will basically teach him everything about life, and he'll view the world from this particular peer group, and the little bit of stuff he hears from his parents or the rare stuff from grandparents on those 3 days a year, will be considered 'old fashioned' and taken with a huge grain of salt.
You can also quickly tell who on this thread has had exposure to other cultures/countries outside of the U.S. and who hasn't.
As a white American guy who has been living abroad for years....one of the BIG questions I get all of the time is 'dont you miss your family?'...and me and everyone from a similar background to me, the answer is 9 times out of 10...'No, I don't'.
This concept puzzles and bewilders just about everyone who isn't from an English-speaking as their first language country (i.e. US/Canada/OZ/NZ/UK). Over here in Asia, people live with their parents and grandparents and have CLOSE relationships with them. You'll see grown adults or teenagers walking arm and arm WITH THEIR MOM! Now with American teenagers, this is simply unheard of. I would be the first to laugh if I saw this in the U.S.
That being said...living over here in Asia...I find the society to be comfortable and nice, and everyone is well-adjusted...and I really think it has a lot to do with close families and people living with parents and grandparents often until 30 or whenever they decide to get married. There is nothing negative about that. If in the US, someone was 30 and lived with their mother, and especially with their grandmother as well, he would be the butt of nearly every joke in every conversation his name came up. But over here in Asia, that is very common.
For myself, I selfishly enjoyed the fact that I have no responsibility whatsoever to my parents, and they raised me to be that way. It does give me a lot of freedom. On the other hand, it has made me think NO WAY will I ever have kids...you raise them for 18 years, and they are unthankful and just disappear...what's the point? The latter part of those 18 years, during their teenage years, they are rebellious and would be a complete nightmare, etc.
Well, now I have a kid. My wife is Asian, and I am living in Asia. I love the fact that my kid will be influenced by this kind of environment. I like when we visit my wife's relatives and my son is having the time of his life with extended family everywhere and people everywhere, all sincerely enjoying and loving spending time together. When I visit my family in the USA, everyone is working, and the kids are a hassle. All the men watch sports on TV when they get together, and the women are exhausted from cooking...and everyone walks away gossiping about how horrible that was to even be there, etc.
I remember when I first got married, and hesitant about kids. My wife always said, 'you have to have kids, who will take care of you when you get older?' That comes back to the fact that the family unit is a lifetime thing spanning all the generations in Asia. Your grandparents help raise the grandkids. They are all in the same household, so parents are actually given a bit more freedom as there are more caretakers in the house. In the same respect, the grandparents are also being taken care of, as they are taking care of the grandkids, etc. (This isn't my family, but your general family in Asia).
Now you take an American household...grandparents have their own world, and you visit them 3 days out of the year - Easter, Thanksgiving and Christmas - as long as your spouse's family aren't meeting on the same day that is. Both the parents are required to work to make house and car payments...so that means 'Little Johnnie' will be raised by babysitters or other random strangers...whenever he isn't in school. Parents will see him around 6pm for a few hours until bedtime...and on weekends...maybe if Dad isn't golfing, they can watch TV together, probably sports...but Dad is resting because Monday is another big workday, so we don't want to do too much! This basically means that 'Little Johnnie' fairly quickly develops a 'peer group' who will basically teach him everything about life, and he'll view the world from this particular peer group, and the little bit of stuff he hears from his parents or the rare stuff from grandparents on those 3 days a year, will be considered 'old fashioned' and taken with a huge grain of salt.
Completely different worlds.
Goodness, what a post!
You caught tons of sharp nuances that most people choose to ignore when they make the anglo/modern - traditional family parallel, superficially and conveniently reaching the PC conclusion that people everywhere are equally family-oriented, just in different ways - not more, not less.
This could not be further from the truth.
I once made the mistake to touch on such aspects on the Parenting forum and I ended up understanding what lynching must feel like.
The reactionary vitriol, the protests, the personal attacks, the insults, etc. were unbelievable. This made me realize that totalitarianism comes in many different forms.
As for Asian families, I don't know as much about them as I know about Latin families, but they do seem to form very strong support networks.
Unfortunately, not one day goes by for me without worrying about the effects of environment on my efforts to raise my children with a traditional family orientation.
PS:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger Beer
I would be the first to laugh if I saw this in the U.S.
Bad, bad, bad!!!
Or as Steven Colbert would say, "no tip of my hat, just a wag of my finger"!!! Not that you are likely to know who Steven Colbert is all the way from Asia.
Countries that have unwalkable cities usually are not family oriented. The cities are designed in a way that people commute "alone" inside their vehicles.
If a city is walkable, a person does not even need to have good social skills to make friends (or meet a significant other). This walkability also helps you keep in touch with your family.
The thing in the usa is that cities are build for vehicles, everything is so distant, and commuting by car is expensive (compared to walkable places were fast and reliable transportation options are available, and cities are more compact)
People from the usa are as good and family oriented as any other, the thing is that US cities are designed for you to be a lonely dude that is always driving everywhere.
Even to go to a bakery you need to drive.
That's why also the usa has a high rate of obesity. Unwalkable cities make people fat. I have seen fat women with pretty faces. They ain't ugly just fat, and it isnt their fault, these cities are built for you to get fat and commute alone. Soulless cities.
It is not a coincidence that the only two walkable cities of the USA have the highest quality of life. (NYC and San Francisco).
You dont need to relocate to a different country, just move to SF, NY, or Honolulu.
You could have Jim Carrey's personality, a cool guy, friendly but if you live in a place like Orlando or Raleigh (unwalkable) you will probably have less than 3 friends, a Match.com account, and your family members will only visit you during Xmas.
I almost fell out of my chair at reading that NYC and SF have the best quality of life! I worked for several years in SF, and it is expensive and a completely horrid place to live (I worked in the financial district).
With all due respect, I never once thought of either area as being family-friendly, and never heard of anyone that liked/loved either place think of it is such. Wow, I learn something new every day
You can also quickly tell who on this thread has had exposure to other cultures/countries outside of the U.S. and who hasn't.
As a white American guy who has been living abroad for years....one of the BIG questions I get all of the time is 'dont you miss your family?'...and me and everyone from a similar background to me, the answer is 9 times out of 10...'No, I don't'.
This concept puzzles and bewilders just about everyone who isn't from an English-speaking as their first language country (i.e. US/Canada/OZ/NZ/UK). Over here in Asia, people live with their parents and grandparents and have CLOSE relationships with them. You'll see grown adults or teenagers walking arm and arm WITH THEIR MOM! Now with American teenagers, this is simply unheard of. I would be the first to laugh if I saw this in the U.S.
That being said...living over here in Asia...I find the society to be comfortable and nice, and everyone is well-adjusted...and I really think it has a lot to do with close families and people living with parents and grandparents often until 30 or whenever they decide to get married. There is nothing negative about that. If in the US, someone was 30 and lived with their mother, and especially with their grandmother as well, he would be the butt of nearly every joke in every conversation his name came up. But over here in Asia, that is very common.
For myself, I selfishly enjoyed the fact that I have no responsibility whatsoever to my parents, and they raised me to be that way. It does give me a lot of freedom. On the other hand, it has made me think NO WAY will I ever have kids...you raise them for 18 years, and they are unthankful and just disappear...what's the point? The latter part of those 18 years, during their teenage years, they are rebellious and would be a complete nightmare, etc.
Well, now I have a kid. My wife is Asian, and I am living in Asia. I love the fact that my kid will be influenced by this kind of environment. I like when we visit my wife's relatives and my son is having the time of his life with extended family everywhere and people everywhere, all sincerely enjoying and loving spending time together. When I visit my family in the USA, everyone is working, and the kids are a hassle. All the men watch sports on TV when they get together, and the women are exhausted from cooking...and everyone walks away gossiping about how horrible that was to even be there, etc.
I remember when I first got married, and hesitant about kids. My wife always said, 'you have to have kids, who will take care of you when you get older?' That comes back to the fact that the family unit is a lifetime thing spanning all the generations in Asia. Your grandparents help raise the grandkids. They are all in the same household, so parents are actually given a bit more freedom as there are more caretakers in the house. In the same respect, the grandparents are also being taken care of, as they are taking care of the grandkids, etc. (This isn't my family, but your general family in Asia).
Now you take an American household...grandparents have their own world, and you visit them 3 days out of the year - Easter, Thanksgiving and Christmas - as long as your spouse's family aren't meeting on the same day that is. Both the parents are required to work to make house and car payments...so that means 'Little Johnnie' will be raised by babysitters or other random strangers...whenever he isn't in school. Parents will see him around 6pm for a few hours until bedtime...and on weekends...maybe if Dad isn't golfing, they can watch TV together, probably sports...but Dad is resting because Monday is another big workday, so we don't want to do too much! This basically means that 'Little Johnnie' fairly quickly develops a 'peer group' who will basically teach him everything about life, and he'll view the world from this particular peer group, and the little bit of stuff he hears from his parents or the rare stuff from grandparents on those 3 days a year, will be considered 'old fashioned' and taken with a huge grain of salt.
Completely different worlds.
As I sit here in my house with both of my wife's parents staying with us and our child for 3 months, and pondering the fact that my mother stayed with us for two months several months ago--and will again next year--I can't help but feel it is perhaps your own experience you are understanding, not other white Americans?
Well I doubt that walkability has much to do with it. That strikes me as just another "greater population density is the answer to everything" mantra I see on the General US section. It's given a bit of a justification here, the loneliness of the commute, but even in places where your workplace is next door you might not see your kid much of the day because you're busy and they're in school. Likewise if you're in a spread out suburb you may see your family a great deal depending on the flexibility of your job, etc.
I do think in the US our culture is individualistic and in some ways built on rebellion. The key "coming of age" story is, as indicated, the adolescent breaking free of their family. In the most extreme case the show Friends, and yes one of the writers specifically said they intended this so I'm not over-analyzing much, was largely based on the premise that family should matter less than friendship because friendship is chosen.
Still the family-orientation can have its downsides too. In some Asian and African cultures getting certain jobs can be difficult if you are not of the right family. The individualism of the US does allow for a certain dynamism about some things. And I think there are times rebelling against parents or family is justified. (I was not a rebellious teen at all, but I didn't universally oppose the idea. I think I just felt rebellion should only be done if you have a legitimate grievance and after other options fail. I loathed "rebellion for rebellion's sake" and still do. I think in some "family oriented" cultures any rebellion might seem bad or unjustified.)
Also, as a previous poster said, we don't want to exaggerate US culture or even white American culture into a monolith. Although living with your elderly parents is rare, it's far from non-existent. And to be honest certain realities, like medical issues or rising life expectancy, are making it rarer than it once was even in Asia. (It's cruel to say, but I imagine it was easier to have your elderly parent live with you when the likelihood was they'd die before developing Alzheimer's or severe Parkinson's.) Further there are plenty of intact families and there are adolescents who are not rebellious in the TV stereotyped way. I think due to the down economy there's even an increase in unmarried adults living with their folks. At least some of them are okay with that too. And I know of family businesses where generations of relatives seem to work together amicably. True I also know of family businesses where they try to destroy each other, but I don't think that negates that for some it works.
Last edited by Thomas R.; 09-09-2010 at 05:50 AM..
I almost fell out of my chair at reading that NYC and SF have the best quality of life! I worked for several years in SF, and it is expensive and a completely horrid place to live (I worked in the financial district).
With all due respect, I never once thought of either area as being family-friendly, and never heard of anyone that liked/loved either place think of it is such. Wow, I learn something new every day
I have to agree with the walking angle though.
I thought something along the same lines when I read it.
It's a good point as it concerns walkability issues but not I don't think it is directly related to family orientation.
Strong families and neighborhoods COULD be achieved even in the un-walkable suburbs, if the will was there. It's more of a mental thing than an infrastructure impediment.
We have a family with three small children just one house away from us and we're in a cul de sac area that is absolutely walkable and safe, even without a well defined sidewalk.
Those kids are NEVER outside, neither have the parents ever shown any indication that it might be healthy for their kids to play together with the neighbor children in closest proximity to them. Oh, well.
As I sit here in my house with both of my wife's parents staying with us and our child for 3 months, and pondering the fact that my mother stayed with us for two months several months ago--and will again next year--I can't help but feel it is perhaps your own experience you are understanding, not other white Americans?
No, diablogun. It is YOUR OWN experience that is the exception. While nobody will deny that you have a close family situation, this is NOT the norm in mainstream America, no matter how you twist it.
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Not that you are likely to know who Steven Colbert is all the way from Asia. 
