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Old 12-01-2014, 04:27 PM
 
Location: Colorado
1,523 posts, read 2,864,332 times
Reputation: 2220

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete View Post
I can tell you that Finland has one of the safest climates on earth. Weather causes hardly any casualties here. Ever.
You didn't answer the question.

Why do so many more people want to live in Arizona than in say, Alberta? After all Arizona is a piece of desert, and Alberta is mostly prairies with plenty of lakes. How come even within Canada - and despite the great financial incentives - people are still reluctant to live in Alberta? How come "snowbirds" are a phenomenon in Canada?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete View Post
People live in Arizona, people live in Alberta. So? But it's not a coincidence that most of the world's deserts are almost uninhabited.
More desert-like climates are inhabited than arctic-like climates. See: The Middle East, American Southwest. Even in very cold countries like Finland and Canada, everyone hugs the border. Why is this? How come ancient civilizations sprung up in the desert? Mesopotamia, the Near East, Persia, Egypt, Asia Minor, Greece? Why didn't they spring up in Greenland or Alaska?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete View Post
Humans aren't designed for anything.
Really? So if I drop you out in the middle of northern Finland naked, you won't have to adapt? Why do you have to wear clothes, and even coats, gloves and hats, most of the year in Europe, Russia and N. America if it is our natural habitat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete View Post
From Berbers to Inuits, humans have survived everywhere on this planet. Why do you think the colonists came to Montréal and not the Yucatan peninsula? Why was Florida practically uninhabited by Europeans 150 years ago, while Finland had people dancing around the Midsummer pole? Or did the "design" suddenly change?

Maybe with little sunlight you get too little vitamin D, in a desert you might not get enough vitamin C. So? What are we gonna do?
Colonists went to Montreal for the fur trade - money. Montreal had a whopping population of 4000 at conquest, when British America had nearly 20 times the population of all of New France so I don't see where you are going with that point. Most Frenchmen who went to Canada performed their duties and then got the hell out. There is a reason why Voltaire called Canada "a few acres of snow".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete View Post
Why was Florida practically uninhabited by Europeans 150 years ago, while Finland had people dancing around the Midsummer pole? Or did the "design" suddenly change?
Once air conditioner was invented, formerly uninhabitable climates became ideal (like Florida). An equivalent invention has not been created for arctic climates. Even still your comparison is quite flawed; Finland had an extremely small population compared to other European countries of similar size, and Florida was very much a colonial frontier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete View Post

How come more people live in Murmansk than Palm Springs? How come more people live in Moscow than Madrid? How come more people live in Finland than Alabama? So, what's your point? We could go on until tomorrow.
My point is that hot (and desert-like) climates like those in Australia are more habitable than arctic climates like those that cover the vast majority of Canada.
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Old 12-01-2014, 04:46 PM
 
Location: Finland
24,128 posts, read 24,804,723 times
Reputation: 11103
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
You didn't answer the question.

Why do so many more people want to live in Arizona than in say, Alberta?

Really? So if I drop you out in the middle of northern Finland naked, you won't have to adapt? Why do you have to wear clothes, and even coats, gloves and hats, most of the year in Europe, Russia and N. America if it is our natural habitat?

Once air conditioner was invented, formerly uninhabitable climates became ideal (like Florida). An equivalent invention has not been created for arctic climates.

My point is that hot (and desert-like) climates like those in Australia are more habitable than arctic climates like those that cover the vast majority of Canada.
I don't know. I'm sure many people would happily live in Alberta. Why is my neighbour Ethiopian despite the climate is better there? Climate is just a tiny factor when deciding to move. But when climate is a factor, people go for comfortable climates. And neither 40 or -40 is comfortable.
And I wouldn't want to live in Phoenix. It's too hot half of the year, and forget about going running during an average summer day. Or playing soccer.

So I drop you out in the middle of Sahara, you won't have to adapt? Coats are nice yes, but I could go out right now running without one.

True, air conditioner did that, but likewise, heating is the equivalent in cold climates, and that was invented a lot before AC.

True, but places like Alert Nunavut is one of the coldest places on earth. The Australian desert isn't even close to being the hottest place, so it's an unfair comparison to start with.
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Old 12-01-2014, 04:49 PM
 
Location: Nation du Québec
242 posts, read 242,482 times
Reputation: 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
You didn't answer the question.

Why do so many more people want to live in Arizona than in say, Alberta? After all Arizona is a piece of desert, and Alberta is mostly prairies with plenty of lakes. How come even within Canada - and despite the great financial incentives - people are still reluctant to live in Alberta? How come "snowbirds" are a phenomenon in Canada?



More desert-like climates are inhabited than arctic-like climates. See: The Middle East, American Southwest. Even in very cold countries like Finland and Canada, everyone hugs the border. Why is this? How come ancient civilizations sprung up in the desert? Mesopotamia, the Near East, Persia, Egypt, Asia Minor, Greece? Why didn't they spring up in Greenland or Alaska?



Really? So if I drop you out in the middle of northern Finland naked, you won't have to adapt? Why do you have to wear clothes, and even coats, gloves and hats, most of the year in Europe, Russia and N. America if it is our natural habitat?



Colonists went to Montreal for the fur trade - money. Montreal had a whopping population of 4000 at conquest, when British America had nearly 20 times the population of all of New France so I don't see where you are going with that point. Most Frenchmen who went to Canada performed their duties and then got the hell out. There is a reason why Voltaire called Canada "a few acres of snow".



Once air conditioner was invented, formerly uninhabitable climates became ideal (like Florida). An equivalent invention has not been created for arctic climates. Even still your comparison is quite flawed; Finland had an extremely small population compared to other European countries of similar size, and Florida was very much a colonial frontier.



My point is that hot (and desert-like) climates like those in Australia are more habitable than arctic climates like those that cover the vast majority of Canada.
Excellent points. I spent one winter October to March in Quebec city with my oncle.....never never again. 5 years later i am still in recovery! It is true that people are not supposed to live in these places. You can offer me money and women but i will never permanently live in this weather. I think miami sounds like a very good idea!
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Old 12-01-2014, 04:55 PM
 
3,950 posts, read 3,302,106 times
Reputation: 1692
Quote:
Granmas and Granpas survive there because of endless AC, swimming pools, staying inside and in the shade. You're comparing that to sitting naked in snow in Churchill's -30C, and therefore your reasoning is = cold is lethal, heat isn't. It's apples and oranges.
Thank you for exactly proving my point and this is what i been saying all along (together with hobbesdj)....modern technology has made living in very hot locales not only tolerable but actually even desirable in many cases.....the same cannot be said about extreme cold places.

By the way, warmer locales have historically always been more populated than cold ones way before the invention of AC....it's a fact.....millions of people live in south east Asia which I can tell you, it is very hard to stand sometimes due to the crazy level of humidity.

Quote:
Ever heard of ski tourism? A lot of Brits, Japanese etc come to Finland for Christmas because they want a snowy one.
Exactly, my point again....people go to very cold place mainly to enjoy a specific activity, skiing (which I like it too by the way and I practice) or to visit very historical cities (a quick example St. Petersburg in Russia).
We pretty much all agree that Banff, Lake Louise with the surrounding landscape are incredibly beautiful....but unless you are going there to skiing, how many people prefer to visit these places in summer rather than winter??
Pretty much nobody visit extremely cold places for the sake of weather......but many go to fairly uninteresting ones in warm weather because of the climate....this is something you do not seem to comprehend.


Nobody goes for tourism in Yellowknife or in Whitehorse....but millions flock to Palm Springs and Las Vegas

Last edited by saturno_v; 12-01-2014 at 05:09 PM..
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Old 12-01-2014, 05:04 PM
 
3,950 posts, read 3,302,106 times
Reputation: 1692
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete View Post
I don't know. I'm sure many people would happily live in Alberta. Why is my neighbour Ethiopian despite the climate is better there? Climate is just a tiny factor when deciding to move. But when climate is a factor, people go for comfortable climates. And neither 40 or -40 is comfortable.
And I wouldn't want to live in Phoenix. It's too hot half of the year, and forget about going running during an average summer day. Or playing soccer.
...many people b...ch about the weather in Alberta...even native Albertans....

Offer to your Ethiopian neighbor a US Green Card or an Australian permanent residence visa and his same economic conditions in San Diego, in Sydney or in Brisbane and see what would likely happen...some people have no other choices...I would choose Canada over Ethiopia myself...

Quote:
True, air conditioner did that, but likewise, heating is the equivalent in cold climates, and that was invented a lot before AC.
Heating won't help you on a walk outside.....and the thousands of granmas and granpas strolling on the streets of Palm Springs in summer do not have wearable AC backpack either....


You still have not replied to Hobbesdj question...why we do have snowbirds from Canada or the northern part of the US and not people from the US going the other way??

Last edited by saturno_v; 12-01-2014 at 05:33 PM..
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Old 12-01-2014, 05:04 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
91 posts, read 117,704 times
Reputation: 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by saturno_v View Post
T Exactly, my point again....people go to very cold place mainly to enjoy a specific activity, skiing (which I like it too by the way and I practice) or to visit very historical cities (a quick example St. Petersburg in Russia).
We pretty much all agree that Banff, Lake Louise with the surrounding landscape is incredibly beautiful....but unless you are going there to skiing, how many people prefer to visit these places in Summer??
Pretty much nobody visit extremely cold places for sake of the the weather......but many go to fairly uninteresting ones in warm weather because of the climate....this is something you do not seem to comprehend.


Nobody goes for tourism in Yellowknife or in Whitehorse....but millions flock to Palm Springs and Las Vegas
You are correct here. Its true that people will actually move and live in Phoenix just for weather but no one lives in Helsinki just for weather. Dont forget San Diego and Los Angeles which is a very desert climate. I know a few people who have bought properties in Sicily and the Mediterranean just for the weather. But who buys property in Nunavut just for the weather? If Hawaii had Helsinki weather would it be a booming tourist location? No it would lose almost the entire population and be like the Faroe islands.
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Old 12-01-2014, 05:08 PM
 
Location: In transition
10,635 posts, read 16,701,596 times
Reputation: 5248
While I agree that Australia is more habitable climate wise than Canada, something I was wondering about. In a very cold country like Russia, why are the two largest cities located further north in the country? You'd think that if climate was the primary factor, that Sochi and Derbent would be the largest cities in the country but that's not the case but these cities are way smaller than Moscow and St. Petersburg. Why don't all Russians want to move to Sochi? Is there such a thing as a Russian snowbird?
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Old 12-01-2014, 05:13 PM
 
3,950 posts, read 3,302,106 times
Reputation: 1692
Quote:
Originally Posted by deneb78 View Post
While I agree that Australia is more habitable climate wise than Canada overall, something I was wondering about. In a very cold country like Russia, why are the two largest cities located further north in the country? You'd think that if climate was the primary factor, that Sochi and Derbent would be the largest cities in the country but that's not the case but these cities are way smaller than Moscow and St. Petersburg. Why don't all Russians want to move to Sochi?
Climate is not the only factor for the development of a specific region...waterways, natural resources, trade routes, etc..but often it is a very important one....all else being equal, give me a warm place over a cold one any day of the week and like me the majority of people in the world I believe....
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Old 12-01-2014, 05:26 PM
 
Location: Colorado
1,523 posts, read 2,864,332 times
Reputation: 2220
Quote:
Originally Posted by deneb78 View Post
=You'd think that if climate was the primary factor, that Sochi and Derbent would be the largest cities in the country but that's not the case but these cities are way smaller than Moscow and St. Petersburg.
All that has been argued is that an adequate climate is necessary for attracting a significant population. So for example climate (with the invention of AC) allows Phoenix to exist, but also prevents a potential metropolis in central Nunavut from ever existing.

So if there were a list of traits necessary for a significant population center it would be something like this:

climate
economy
government
manpower

(In no particular order, and the list is mostly taken from sociologists like Max Weber)

A potential population center needs to have some economic significance (trade route? center of commerce). It needs some sort of government or laws keeping order. It needs adequate manpower to provide a workforce. And of course it needs an adequate climate to grow food en masse, raise livestock, man the factories, enforce the laws, but also keep people around. Anchorage, Alaska is a great example of a place that can meet these requirements except for climate: despite financial incentives very few will to stay there longer than the job requires thanks to long periods of darkness and extreme cold.

Each of these are interlinked, and humans have been able to create all of these conditions except for climate. Until we learn how control the weather and sun we will not be able to build that city in central Nunavut. So Moscow and St. Petersburg, as well as cities like Helsinki, Stockholm, and Oslo (and Vancouver, Quebec City, and Edmonton) meet what appear to be the minimum requirements of what is necessary for significant human settlement. But north of these cities there are no significant population centers, and it is due to climate more than anything.
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Old 12-01-2014, 06:05 PM
 
Location: Toronto
15,102 posts, read 15,877,316 times
Reputation: 5202
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete View Post
Snow on the road is your biggest challenge? I think that's quite a minor thing. How do you think Canada functions?
.
Don't tell him about 'winter' tires lol
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