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Old 01-11-2012, 03:58 PM
 
Location: Kūkiʻo, HI & Manhattan Beach, CA
2,624 posts, read 6,586,762 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
West Africa is a very old region, populated longer then most other parts of the world. Thus there is a lot of genetic diversity, but then again, because of all the mixing over the tens of thousands of years, and the same environment that does not at all translate into much different looks. And compared to immigrant countries such as the US, West Africa is pretty homogeneous.
We agree that genetic diversity exists within West Africa; however, all West Africans don't look the same to everyone. There have been studies done about the "cross-race effect" in which people outside of one's racial or ethnic group "all look alike." As one's contact and familiarity with a particular racial or ethnic group increases, the "cross-race effect" is reduced. Thus, some folks will see an enormous amount of diversity within a particular group of people, while others will see almost none.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
You are comparing Africa to immigrant countries, which by nature are much more diverse than non-immigrant countries, even Europe as a whole is an immigrant continent. Modern humans arrived there relatively recently, and mixed with Neanderthals (black Africans are the only modern humans who never mixed with Neanderthals), so that is a completely different situation. And the geographical distance from Sweden to Greece comes close to the extension of the parts of West Africa where the slaves came from. I did not say at all that people from the Ivory Coast are identical to those in Cameroon.
Many countries in Africa can be considered "immigrant countries" as well, depending upon how one looks at it. The Neanderthals (homo neanderthalensis) didn't originate in Europe, they are descended from homo ergaster, which came from Africa. Homo ergaster is also a direct ancestor of homo sapiens (modern humans). Homo neanderthalensis simply migrated to the European continent before homo sapiens did. While some interbreeding most likely occurred between homo neanderthalensis and homo sapiens (as they crossed paths in the northern part of the African continent and the "Middle East"), only 1 to 4 percent of the DNA of non-African peoples today has any genes that can be ascribed to homo neanderthalensis. One could go as far back as homo habilis and homo gautengensis and show that the ancestors of modern humans most likely came from the southern part of the African continent. Thus, even though it was long ago, the ancestors of modern humans most likely migrated to "West Africa" from "South Africa" over hundreds of years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Jamaican have a very similar history as AA's. They are also the descendants of slaves from the same region. Actually they may be more interesting regarding such comparisons as they are not nearly as mixed as AA's.
All Jamaicans aren't descended from African slaves. Some Jamaicans have ancestors that came from Great Britain, China, India, and several other places, and some of them are more "mixed" than "African Americans."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
I am not ignoring anything, neither the mixing, nor anything else, nor the Africans who later on migrated to the US voluntarily. Interestingly those later immigrants do not consider themselves as AA's, there are people like that even on this board, Edward I guess is one of them.
That's debatable. While many immigrants to the United State retain their ethnic identity, their "American-born" offspring often identify as "African Americans", "Asian Americans", etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
There is no scientific racism. Racism means judging and saying X is better than Y. It is not racist to simply describe differences, especially differences that are in no way about qualities crucial to human dignity (I do find it racist if people say Asians have higher IQs than Africans, even if it is said in an objective way, it is just a euphemism for saying X is more stupid than Y. Nor is there any objective data or reasoning to support such views.). I think it is politically correct to deny differences.
First you state that there's no "scientific racism" and then you give an example of "scientific racism."

I'm not sure if you're familiar with a 1994 book called "The Bell Curve" by Richard J. Herrnstein and Charles Murray. It was somewhat controversial because the authors attempted to correlate race with intelligence using "data" from IQ tests. "Scientific racism" is simply the use of techniques and hypotheses based on "science" to support beliefs of racial superiority or inferiority. To surmise that "African Americans" are "more athletic" than "West Africans" because of the impact of slavery borders on "scientific racism." However, if one states that the Dallas Mavericks of the NBA is better at basketball than the Mali National Basketball team of the International Basketball Federation (FIBA), it's a little different. It's a matter of hypothetical generalities versus something that's precisely framed and can be easily proved.

"Political correctness" is simply the adoption of language, behavior, policies, etc. in order to minimize social offense. By its very nature, "political correctness" acknowledges diversity; however, it goes out of its way not to offend. For instance, instead of calling someone a "bozo", someone that's "politically correct" might refer to that person as "intellectually-challenged", etc. to avoid offending the Bozo people of Mali as well as circus clowns. Nowadays, some folks use the term "politically correct" (or "PC" for short) as a pejorative to criticize liberals and rail against an artificially-imposed orthodoxy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Lighter skin does not mean much, as a) physiognomy is more important and b) there has also been some mixing in West Africa, let's not forget about the colonial era, there was love and rape and what not just like in the Americas. Unlike in the US there has not been much research on the mixing in Africa. But even if there are some lighter-skinned folks there, I assume the mixing is little compared to the US.
Just yesterday there was a short documentary on Nigeria because of the religious clashes and elections there. They interviews various protesters, it was striking how homogeneously dark they all were, there was not one lighter-skinned face in the crowd.
When someone has a clearly different skin color from all the other people in one's region, chances are there was some mixing. Even Europeans have various shades of pigmentation because of the historic migrations and mixing of her peoples. Among any original people (before any mixing) skin color probably varied very little. Those Nordic ancestors for instance were probably all the same type in terms of looks.
Don't get me wrong, though. I am all for mixing I hate racism as in trying to remain pure this or that...
Overall, lighter skin simply means that someone has less melanin. If someone's exposed to enough UVB radiation, they're going to either "tan" or get a "sunburn", depending upon the amount of melanin the melanocytes in their skin produces. In my neighborhood in Hawai'i, there's a person of mostly Irish ancestry, a person of mostly Okinawan ancestry, a person of mostly Pilipino ancestry, a person of mostly native Hawaiian ancestry, and a person that considers themselves to be "African American." After decades of being exposed to the tropical sun, all of these folks pretty much have the same skin color -- brown. So despite history, migration patterns, genetic "mixing", culture, etc. skin color is just one of many superficial qualities that modern humans possess, much like eye color and hair color. Unfortunately, some folks have imbued skin color with more importance than it warrants.
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Old 01-11-2012, 04:10 PM
 
2,816 posts, read 5,751,909 times
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Indeed. Try to fly into Glasgow airport with a natural tan after a summer in a sunny place. You will set all the alarms for the local Wiggums, who are only used to pink or bright orange as a skin colour and will call you aside taking you for an Islamic terrorist *** Colombian drug baron.
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Old 01-12-2012, 08:55 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
23,709 posts, read 21,151,602 times
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Nah, actually, I am better at telling blacks apart than for instance Nordic people, let alone East Asians.

Despite all the migrations of humans, West Africa is not an immigrant region the way the US is an immigrant country. Totally different dimensions of time here...
3% Neanderthal admixture can make a significant difference, depending on which genes are concerned.

Despite some mixed ethnic groups, the largest ethnic groups on Jamaica are Akan and Igbo from West Africa. According to the CIA Factbook 91.2% of Jamaicans are non-mixed blacks.

From what I know many recent voluntary immigrants from Africa try not to be considered African-Americans as they fear they would be at a disadvantage. Nor do they want their kids to become AA's in the traditional sense.

Sorry, I meant to say, "there is no scientific racism HERE". I have not read that book, but it was mentioned in several IQ-related threads here. I do not believe in those theories regarding races and intelligence as there has not been any selection for intelligence. Nor do I consider my own opinions science, I have never claimed that. They are just the conclusions I have arrived at.

These days it is pc not to say certain things at all, not just not in a certain way.

Yeah, Hawaii is a typical immigrant state, thus the diversity. And the longer all those ethnic groups live there, the more similar they will become in every way. 200 years from now they might have mixed to a degree that renders the term ethnic obsolete. Still, before any mixing the people of an isolated ethnic group all have pretty much the same color (as long as they live in the same region and are thus exposed to the same conditions). Variations are very limited. There is the occasional person with genetic variations, even albinos. But still, if for instance an Icelander were as dark as a Portuguese farmhand, people would think he or she is somehow mixed, even if he or she claims to be 100% Icelandic.
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Old 01-12-2012, 09:41 PM
 
Location: Hollywood, CA
1,644 posts, read 2,788,050 times
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This is my first post here

Most African Americans look similar to West Africans but have a watered down appearance compared to a 100% West African since most African Americans are not 100% African genetically.

The fact is that most African Americans do not know their full ancestry because of the American color line which scrapped the "mixed" category and pretty much put the mixed race slave descendants into the same social grouping as the more purer slave descendants and they mixed together to create a distinctive American phenotype which varies from person to person.

In fact. Most Black Americans I'm sharing with on 23andme are only 60-80% African.


As African American families range in a whole range of shades and phenotypes because of a mix of different West/Central African ethnicities along with non African admixture from Europeans and Native Americans.

Other West African descended groups in the Americas like Hatians, Jamaicans, and other countries in the Caribbean tend to be darker skinned on average, have less of a range of skin tones, and have stronger African features on average than African Americans and look like they came straight from West Africa.

Like Haitians



Jamaicans



Afro Colombians


Surinamese Maroons, who are one of the purest Africans of the Americas



While these groups do have a lot of individuals who are admixed. The proportions are no where near as high as African Americans.

Typical African American family



While there are a lot of West African groups who are lighter skinned and thave thinner features like in the Sahel and a lot of Nigerians and Cameroonians are caramel complected. Most African Americans are descended from the same African groups as Jamaicans, Haitians, and other Caribbeans, and the difference is quite visible as these groups are 90% or more African genetically on average. Most African Americans would be seen as "Coloureds" in Africa as a few of my AA friends have told me that the locals called them mixed or colored.

Some African Americans are more European than African genetically. Look at Vanessa Williams, Jeremiah Wright, Lena Horne, Pebbles Reid, Harold Ford, Julian Bond etc, all of them have significant European ancestry and they make up 10-20% of the African American population.

As a whole, African Americans are between the more mixed Afro Latinos and the less mixed Haitians and Jamaicans.

EDIT: This is also noticeable with half AA/White or Latino children as the children are mostly European genetically while half SSA/White children look like African Americans like Beyonce and Tyra Banks, and are darker skinned with stronger African features than half AA biracials who are really Quadroons genetically.

Last edited by hipcat; 01-12-2012 at 10:51 PM..
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Old 01-12-2012, 10:48 PM
 
Location: Hollywood, CA
1,644 posts, read 2,788,050 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyanna View Post
You can't compare African Americans to other groups of ppl because we are NOT them; maybe those other groups ARE mixed race on average which is why they view themselves as such. You fail to understand that not all AAs are as mixed as YOU think they are. Just because whenever you see an AA, they are very light complected with significant admixture does not mean they are the norm in many black cities. I live in a city that is over 90% Black and alot of AAs are not mixed race at all. the average AA is not the same skin tone or have the same racial admixture as Rihanna, Beyonce, Lauren London or Halle Berry.

Super mixed black people you are talking about are a minority i.e Vanessa Williams. They don't make up the majority which is why AAs do not identify as such. I cannot identify as mixed race because as far as I can go back, no one is mixed or biracial in my family!
It depends regionally also. The Black Americans in your area are not as mixed. But in different areas of the US, there are many AA's who look like Rihanna, Beyonce, Lauren London, Halle Berry, and especially Keri Hilson. These types are very common on the West Coast, Midwest, Louisiana, East Texas, Georgia, North Carolina, and Virginia, where a significant number of AA's live. So your reality might be different than the realities in many parts of the US.
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Old 01-12-2012, 11:18 PM
 
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African Americans simply put are a mixed race of people.
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Old 01-13-2012, 11:43 AM
 
Location: Midwest
2,953 posts, read 4,685,070 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMario View Post
That lady is mixed. Along with her light skin, her features are refined. Like the posters above me said, mixing did occur in West Africa.
There are Black Africans who are indigenous who have those features like the woman above.

http://www.africanmoviesnews.com/wp-...ve-Nnaji13.jpg

Does this woman look mixed to you too? She is from Nigeria.

Having a Horrible day? This quick tip might help! - YouTube

How about her? AA or West African?
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Old 01-13-2012, 11:44 AM
 
Location: Midwest
2,953 posts, read 4,685,070 times
Reputation: 1957
Quote:
Originally Posted by hipcat View Post
It depends regionally also. The Black Americans in your area are not as mixed. But in different areas of the US, there are many AA's who look like Rihanna, Beyonce, Lauren London, Halle Berry, and especially Keri Hilson. These types are very common on the West Coast, Midwest, Louisiana, East Texas, Georgia, North Carolina, and Virginia, where a significant number of AA's live. So your reality might be different than the realities in many parts of the US.
I am from the midwest, and I can certainly say that the average Black person does is not Rihanna, Beyonce or Lauren London's skin tone.
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Old 01-13-2012, 11:49 AM
 
Location: Astoria, NY
3,052 posts, read 3,852,400 times
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Skin tone in and of itself is not an indication of the amount of admixture.

There are darker skinned AA's with more European features, and lighter skinned with more Afriican features.
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Old 01-13-2012, 12:04 PM
 
Location: Midwest
2,953 posts, read 4,685,070 times
Reputation: 1957
Look at these AAs from Hurricane katrina



There were lots of AAs who look like this
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