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Old 10-16-2012, 12:48 AM
 
Location: WA
1,442 posts, read 1,940,007 times
Reputation: 1517

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Firstly, to answer the question of whether or not individual firearm ownership is a necessary component of freedom, I, a staunch civil liberarian, would say that it most absolutely is; nevertheless, I know that very few people outside of the United States tend to share this belief, and I can generally accept this fact without feeling compelled to lecture any non-U.S. citizen about their country's firearm restrictions being in violation of what I believe to be a fundamental civil liberty. Good thing I reject universalism.

I am, however, far less accepting of know-nothingisms such as these:

Quote:
Originally Posted by paull805 View Post
How can anyone love guns, they are for nothing else but to kill and maim people. Even if I had one for protection, I'd prey I'd never use it. America has enough LEGAL guns to arm every man, woman and child in their country never mind illegal ones, I just find it bonkers. I wonder how many Americans would love guns if they stayed in the worst, mainly black, ghettos where the real victims of America's gun obsession reside.
You see this, everyone?

Impoverished minorities in dangerous areas of the United States are dying because Americans, by and large, aren't willing to accept the (baseless) notion that more national restrictions on firearms will save lives. I mean really, who cares if there's no established statistical precedence in the United States to justify more national gun restrictions? Too many Americans still value a tenet of our Bill of Rights, thus resulting in a "gun obsession" that is, apparently, killing lots and lots of people (and since so many of these people are ethnic minorities, it probably means that the second amendment as it stands is not only dangerous, but also fundamentally racist).

Plus, everyone knows that a gun collector, a hunter, a sport shooter or someone who owns a handgun for self-defense is, as a result of being obsessed with guns, the moral equivalent of gang-bangers (if not mass-murderers!) who kill others; how dare they believe that the law shouldn't acknowledge them as common criminals and over-regulate/confiscate/criminalize their property? Dumb, gun-obsessed hillbillies, let me tell you...

So hopefully, maybe someday, Americans will realize that their general lack of firearm phobia and legitimate respect (see "obsession") for an explicit, judicially affirmed right must be obliterated from their culture in order to save lives. Not only will Americans look better in the court of global opinion for accepting this (and the court of global opinion IS ALWAYS RIGHT), perhaps they'll also rectify their previous tolerance of racist gun laws that directly victimize minorities.

America, we have work to do!





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Old 10-16-2012, 12:15 PM
 
Location: Leeds, UK
22,112 posts, read 29,589,687 times
Reputation: 8819
The social environment is radically different in the US than most of Europe so it is no surprise that Americans may feel guns are necessary but not at all in Europe.

Nonetheless, while casual gun ownership is rare here, there are many people, primarily in rural areas, that own guns and enjoy hunting, while I'm sure many own guns for sports. My grandfather had a few guns before he passed away, as he enjoyed hunting in Scotland.
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Old 10-16-2012, 01:48 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,554 posts, read 86,992,173 times
Reputation: 36644
The premise is that it is inconceivable that any national government would ever grant freedom to the citizenry, unless forced to do so at the point of a gun. Yet, Canada, Australia and the UK all have much stricter gun laws than the USA, and no international observer group has ever suggested that the level of freedom in those countries is any lower than in the USA.

In Canada, every firearm must be registered and licensed.
In Australia, there is a 28-day waiting period to buy a gun, and the purchaser must demonstrate a legitimate need for one, and self defense is not a legitimate need.
In the UK, guns in the hands of civilians is virtually banned, except for hunting pieces.

Yet, no citizen of those countries is, in general, lacking in the broad freedoms that Americans have, and their governments have not been forced by an armed revolution to grudgingly grant liberty.
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Old 10-16-2012, 06:58 PM
 
Location: M I N N E S O T A
14,773 posts, read 21,504,427 times
Reputation: 9263
Quote:
Originally Posted by paull805 View Post
How can anyone love guns, they are for nothing else but to kill and maim people. Even if I had one for protection, I'd prey I'd never use it. America has enough LEGAL guns to arm every man, woman and child in their country never mind illegal ones, I just find it bonkers. I wonder how many Americans would love guns if they stayed in the worst, mainly black, ghettos where the real victims of America's gun obsession reside.
Shooting ranges, Hunting, i'm a pretty mellow person im not going to go around shooting people who give me the stink eye. you should look at America's gun obsession in places like Alaska and Wyoming, pretty much everyone owns a gun and everyone know that so criminals are usually put off by this and you see pretty much zero road rage.

I believe people carrying weapons illegally should have very serious consequences, its crazy how many kids in places like South Side Chicago seem like they want to solve all their problems with violence.
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Old 10-17-2012, 01:18 AM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,211 posts, read 107,931,771 times
Reputation: 116159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oleg Bach View Post
e guard...If those liberals full of fear knew that I had trained my kids in the safe and skillful use of fire arms they would have sent the child protection people to take them away.
Why? I'm liberal, and I used to teach archery and riflery to kids.
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Old 10-17-2012, 07:00 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,554 posts, read 86,992,173 times
Reputation: 36644
Quote:
Originally Posted by iNviNciBL3 View Post

I believe people carrying weapons illegally should have very serious consequences, its crazy how many kids in places like South Side Chicago seem like they want to solve all their problems with violence.
Isn't the whole idea of the Second Amendment that there is no such thing an illegal weapon? And if the Second Amendment were repealed, all guns would be illegal weapons?

So, by a single stroke of the pen in a legislative bill, you would go from all people carrying weapons legally, to all people carrying weapons illegally. But how would that change any facts on the ground?

The Legality of something has absolutely nothing to do with the moral virtue of it. The law is merely the tool used by people in power to enforce their will, whether the people in power are a despot, or a majority.

"Everything Hitler did was legal, and everything the Hungarian Freedom Fighters did was illegal."
-- Nelson Mandela.

By the way, why shouldn't kids on South Side Chicago be entitled to their Second Amendment right to defend themselves. or shoot varmints, or form a well-regulated militia necessary to the security of their free state? Aren't you concerned about how many neighborhood watch patrols in Florida want to solve all their problems with violence?

Last edited by jtur88; 10-17-2012 at 07:13 AM..
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Old 10-17-2012, 12:57 PM
 
Location: M I N N E S O T A
14,773 posts, read 21,504,427 times
Reputation: 9263
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
By the way, why shouldn't kids on South Side Chicago be entitled to their Second Amendment right to defend themselves. or shoot varmints, or form a well-regulated militia necessary to the security of their free state? Aren't you concerned about how many neighborhood watch patrols in Florida want to solve all their problems with violence?
They can get a licensed to carry! and you should meet certain requirements to get a license to carry such as having a clean criminal record within the past decade (or something like that) and have no mental disorders. There are some kids (without a license to carry) in any city that will go buy a gun from someone that shouldn't be selling a gun. and use that gun to go rob someone or shoot a rival gang member or something stupid like that. I'm sure many people in Chicago legally own a gun and use it for protection or whatever and that's good for them, its people who use guns for criminal activities that i have a problem with.
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Old 10-17-2012, 02:00 PM
 
Location: FIN
888 posts, read 1,591,996 times
Reputation: 811
I feel if the people here feel concerned about their safety, they should indeed be allowed to purchase a weapon for the purpose of self-defense. In a roundabout way this is already legally possible, with handguns too, but i wouldn't mind if this became official. I do understand the circumnstances based on which certain city-dwellers reject the idea, but anyone who's spent time in the rural areas knows how spotty services from police can get, and it's not getting any better. I wish we all could be a one big happy family singing the kumbaya at the campfire, not caring about the fact that some may feel the need to carry a firearm, and do so.
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Old 10-17-2012, 05:41 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,554 posts, read 86,992,173 times
Reputation: 36644
Quote:
Originally Posted by iNviNciBL3 View Post
They can get a licensed to carry! and you should meet certain requirements to get a license to carry such as having a clean criminal record within the past decade (or something like that) and have no mental disorders. .
Not in Chicago, they can't. Illinois has no concealed carry, and doesn't recognize it from other states. In Illinois, if you fear for you life, you have to carry illegally or go bare.
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Old 10-17-2012, 06:48 PM
 
Location: Where the heart is...
4,927 posts, read 5,316,274 times
Reputation: 10674
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger Beer View Post
Also this American political controversy is fairly irrelevant on the World Forum. It doesn't apply to Europe or Oceania or Canada or our other regular World Forum viewers.

It only makes sense if someone has a deep understanding of American culture, history, politics, etc.

If someone doesn't understand it, taking it to the world forum certainly won't help someone understand it.

Once a country becomes inundated with guns, it's also nearly impossible to get them out. It would be interesting to hear from residences of other gun-entrenched current societies like Afghanistan or African countries where there are many child soldiers, etc. What's their take on trying to de-gun their citizens when gun violence has already gone too far.

It's doubtful our world forum would get past the aghast of guns in America though, to realistically get much deeper into this topic or subject though.
Exactly the point of this thread...
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