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Old 06-10-2012, 06:12 PM
 
Location: Madrid
1,049 posts, read 1,605,974 times
Reputation: 1229

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The thing about "The right to bear arms," is that this was conceived in the 1700's when one would need a musket to protect himself, hunt, join a militia, etc. This fit the time. Fast forward 300 years and guns are so much more technologically advanced, instead of a musket or a flintlock you have people with semi automatic weapons, and concealed hand guns. No one uses them for defense anymore, it's the thought that you may need it that keeps people strongly in favor of guns. If the criminals didn't have guns, the general public wouldn't need guns. The idea is so outdated that it's gotten way out of hand.

As an American living in the UK, I don't feel any less free here than I do in the USA. I have not heard of a single mass shooting in this country in the year that I've lived here. Stabbings, yes, occasionally, but you can't eliminate murder completely, and someone can't take out a crowd of 30 people with a knife. Think of it this way: Nearly every large American city has a ghetto, and several neighborhoods that you don't want to get within 2 miles of. There are very few areas of London like this, let alone in other large UK cities.. I'd venture to say the same about most cities throughout Europe, Canada, Australia, and other 1st world countries.

To further back this up, look how long the list for the USA is, especially in recent years, compared to the short lists in Canada, Europe, and Australia:
School shooting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 06-10-2012, 06:35 PM
 
Location: Minnysoda
10,659 posts, read 10,723,112 times
Reputation: 6745
Quote:
Originally Posted by wikiwikirunner View Post
The thing about "The right to bear arms," is that this was conceived in the 1700's when one would need a musket to protect himself, hunt, join a militia, etc. This fit the time. Fast forward 300 years and guns are so much more technologically advanced, instead of a musket or a flintlock you have people with semi automatic weapons, and concealed hand guns. No one uses them for defense anymore, it's the thought that you may need it that keeps people strongly in favor of guns. If the criminals didn't have guns, the general public wouldn't need guns. The idea is so outdated that it's gotten way out of hand.

As an American living in the UK, I don't feel any less free here than I do in the USA. I have not heard of a single mass shooting in this country in the year that I've lived here. Stabbings, yes, occasionally, but you can't eliminate murder completely, and someone can't take out a crowd of 30 people with a knife. Think of it this way: Nearly every large American city has a ghetto, and several neighborhoods that you don't want to get within 2 miles of. There are very few areas of London like this, let alone in other large UK cities.. I'd venture to say the same about most cities throughout Europe, Canada, Australia, and other 1st world countries.

To further back this up, look how long the list for the USA is, especially in recent years, compared to the short lists in Canada, Europe, and Australia:
School shooting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Good thing you moved out!!! As someone who has had to use a gun in personal defense on my own private property I can assure you that you are WRONG
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Old 06-10-2012, 06:37 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,193 posts, read 107,809,412 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ohazco View Post
Also not true at all.
From the Huffington Post, a liberal source: Gun Control Poll: Most Americans Support Right To Use Deadly Force, Have Favorable View Of NRA
and from Gallup Polling
Record-Low 26% in U.S. Favor Handgun Ban
which says only 26% of Americans support a handgun ban and only 43% support stricter laws on "assault weapons" and on gun sales. According to you, 43% is a "small minority" since that is approximately how many households in the US own guns.
The number of U.S. women who say household has a gun hits record high - latimes.com
Funny, the poll I read said only around 24% own guns. Where are all these nearly 3/4 of the population, then, who support allowing handguns? I've lived in 3 states, and never known anyone who supported handgun ownership. Where are they polling for these results?
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Old 06-10-2012, 07:15 PM
 
Location: Leeds, UK
22,112 posts, read 29,574,917 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by my54ford View Post
Good thing you moved out!!! As someone who has had to use a gun in personal defense on my own private property I can assure you that you are WRONG
You are WRONG because you think differently to me!! Is that how all Americans behave?

Funny though, I've never even used self defence before in my entire life. Most people I know haven't either. Maybe you're just more likely to be a victim of crime in the US?
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Old 06-10-2012, 08:00 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,193 posts, read 107,809,412 times
Reputation: 116097
wikiwikirunner: I know a guy online who was stuck living in one of those neighborhoods in London that you said there are few of. He was miserable due to constant threats of violence by punks he had to walk past all the time, he couldn't have his girlfriend over due to safety reasons, and he eventually gave up and moved in with his parents. I'm not saying a gun is the solution, guns would only make it worse, because the punks would have guns! I'm just saying, those areas are there, and they really affect people. Maybe there are more of them than you're aware. Though I suppose it's nothing an economic upturn wouldn't solve.... Or maybe that wouldn't solve the problem. Opportunities for upward mobility in England are slim.
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Old 06-10-2012, 08:02 PM
 
Location: Burlington, Colorado
350 posts, read 847,970 times
Reputation: 504
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
Funny, the poll I read said only around 24% own guns. Where are all these nearly 3/4 of the population, then, who support allowing handguns? I've lived in 3 states, and never known anyone who supported handgun ownership. Where are they polling for these results?
Ya.... Gallup polling just made it up. Where is your source? According to this, they live all over the place, you must have lived in Hawaii, Mass., and New Jersey. Again, a liberal source, so you can't cry foul polling. What people you know think is not a viable argument against nationwide polling. Perhaps its just the people you hang around with tend to be anti-gun type folks?

Gun Ownership by State (washingtonpost.com)
(Note the data is kind of old, but by every account rates have only gone up since then)
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Old 06-10-2012, 08:02 PM
 
Location: Lethbridge, AB
1,132 posts, read 1,938,565 times
Reputation: 978
I've noticed a couple of things throughout this thread that I'd like a little bit of clarification on:

I find there to be a slightly odd sentiment here about feeling safe without a gun, as most of these posters live in areas with armed police officers (even those who don't have armed beat cops have heavily armed SWAT teams, etc).

How does one reconcile not needing a gun to feel safe when there is an armed person tasked specifically with your protection?


What I also find curious is the determination among some posters to hang the US's social woes on gun ownership, as though if guns were taken out of the equation the wretched social conditions that appear to spawn the high crime rate in some areas would dissipate.

Do those posters genuinely feel that high crime in the US is caused by guns?
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Old 06-10-2012, 08:09 PM
 
Location: Madrid
1,049 posts, read 1,605,974 times
Reputation: 1229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
wikiwikirunner: I know a guy online who was stuck living in one of those neighborhoods in London that you said there are few of. He was miserable due to constant threats of violence by punks he had to walk past all the time, he couldn't have his girlfriend over due to safety reasons, and he eventually gave up and moved in with his parents. I'm not saying a gun is the solution, guns would only make it worse, because the punks would have guns! I'm just saying, those areas are there, and they really affect people. Maybe there are more of them than you're aware. Though I suppose it's nothing an economic upturn wouldn't solve.... Or maybe that wouldn't solve the problem. Opportunities for upward mobility in England are slim.
Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of poor areas of London, and the UK. You hear about stabbings every week in London, it's a city with 8 million people. You're never going to cut out all crime, and everyone can't live in a posh flat in South Kensington. If there were guns in the UK, I'm sure murder rates in many of the poor, already crime ridden areas would absolutely go through the roof. I would much rather face an attacker with a knife than a gun.

Just read today, headlining USA today:
Fatal shooting at pool party stuns the Auburn community

The theory of having guns to protect yourself is fine, in my opinion, but in practice it is completely wrong.
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Old 06-10-2012, 08:10 PM
 
Location: Madrid
1,049 posts, read 1,605,974 times
Reputation: 1229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stubblejumper View Post

Do those posters genuinely feel that high crime in the US is caused by guns?
Not caused by, but it is certainly a large contributor.
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Old 06-10-2012, 08:23 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,193 posts, read 107,809,412 times
Reputation: 116097
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stubblejumper View Post

Do those posters genuinely feel that high crime in the US is caused by guns?
High violent crime rates in the US generally are due to guns. This doesn't mean that if guns disappeared, violent crime would disappear, though. This is a narrowly-defined discussion, that's why we're not getting into a sociological analysis of the root of crime in the US.

But it's a funny thing. The theory in the USSR was that if all workers had their basic needs met, crime would disappear, there would be no motive for it. And yet...crime didn't disappear, much to the regime's surprise. The causes of crime are varied and complex. Sounds like a great topic for its own thread.
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