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Old 06-10-2012, 08:33 PM
 
Location: Lethbridge, AB
1,132 posts, read 1,941,237 times
Reputation: 978

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
High violent crime rates in the US generally are due to guns. This doesn't mean that if guns disappeared, violent crime would disappear, though. This is a narrowly-defined discussion, that's why we're not getting into a sociological analysis of the root of crime in the US.

But it's a funny thing. The theory in the USSR was that if all workers had their basic needs met, crime would disappear, there would be no motive for it. And yet...crime didn't disappear, much to the regime's surprise. The causes of crime are varied and complex. Sounds like a great topic for its own thread.
It's certainly a vast, complex topic, and not one I really intended to open fully - rather I think the simple fact that it is such a large, complicated topic would suggest that guns are simply a tool within a far larger problem and not the cause that some make them out to be.

As an analogy, we mostly refrain from blaming chainsaws or heavy logging equipment for deforestation, though if we had to resort to axes and hand saws we'd certainly cut down less trees. On the other hand, banning chainsaws doesn't really deal with the heart of the issue and it'd be naive to think that people wouldn't find news methods.
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Old 06-10-2012, 09:09 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,240 posts, read 108,130,790 times
Reputation: 116204
Banning guns would eliminate the problem of depressed teens running amok at school, small children getting ahold of the parental gun and accidentally shooting their friends, psychos shooting people or cops (as happened a couple of months ago on a college campus), and so forth. Kids don't saw their friends with their dad's chainsaw, or run around highschool sawing random people in the hallways. Crimes of passion rarely involve chainsaws.

Violent crime in countries that don't allow guns is lower than in the US. There's still violent crime in England, as someone pointed out, but the incidence of it is much lower, in spite of poverty, inequality, and a virtually insurmountable class system.
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Old 06-10-2012, 09:42 PM
 
Location: The Present
2,006 posts, read 4,311,284 times
Reputation: 1987
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
Banning guns would eliminate the problem of depressed teens running amok at school, small children getting ahold of the parental gun and accidentally shooting their friends, psychos shooting people or cops (as happened a couple of months ago on a college campus), and so forth. Kids don't saw their friends with their dad's chainsaw, or run around highschool sawing random people in the hallways. Crimes of passion rarely involve chainsaws.

Violent crime in countries that don't allow guns is lower than in the US. There's still violent crime in England, as someone pointed out, but the incidence of it is much lower, in spite of poverty, inequality, and a virtually insurmountable class system.
I think that's a parenting issue right there. Do you ever hear about school shoot outs in Montana, Wyoming, Alaska? It's so easy to get a gun in any of these states (specifically Wyoming). There are a lot of repression issues that need to be handled if you want to stop school shootings.

That case that happened in Oakland (with a 43 yr old man, not a child), the suspect obviously had some issues that he wasn't able to deal with. Having guns is not the issue, there are articles that already prove this point.
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Old 06-10-2012, 09:53 PM
 
5,758 posts, read 11,647,588 times
Reputation: 3870
Actually, there was a fatal school shooting in Bethel, Alaska in 1997, and a plot to carry out a school shooting was broken up in the town of North Pole (north of Fairbanks) in 2006. Several students were wounded in a school shooting in Anchorage in May 2001. Wyoming had a shooting and hostage incident at a school in the town of Cokeville in 1986, and another in Sheridan in 1993. Montana had a school shooting in Lewiston in 1986 as well.

So, unfortunately, all three of the states you mentioned have had school shootings in the past, despite their low populations.
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Old 06-10-2012, 09:55 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,240 posts, read 108,130,790 times
Reputation: 116204
That article was posted by the 2nd Amendment Foundation. How about some analysis as to what other factors may have been involved in the drop in violent crime? I guess they're not interested in that.

Someone left an interesting comment: if everyone had guns in the home, burglars would get killed a lot earlier in their "career", rather than going on to commit more burglaries. The problem with this mentality is that it encourages killings when they're not necessary to deter crime. I've dealt with burglars without needing a gun. Even if I had a gun, I wouldn't have used it in those instances. It would be a last resort. People are regarding castle doctrines and stand-your-ground laws as licenses to kill with impunity, and that's not good. People are getting trigger-happy. One member here posted earlier that she and a group of friends faced a robbery-at-gunpoint attempt once, but she talked their way out of it, and they walked away unharmed.
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Old 06-10-2012, 09:56 PM
 
26,832 posts, read 22,619,213 times
Reputation: 10054
Quote:
Originally Posted by tablemtn View Post
Actually, there was a fatal school shooting in Bethel, Alaska in 1997, and a plot to carry out a school shooting was broken up in the town of North Pole (north of Fairbanks) in 2006. Several students were wounded in a school shooting in Anchorage in May 2001. Wyoming had a shooting and hostage incident at a school in the town of Cokeville in 1986, and another in Sheridan in 1993. Montana had a school shooting in Lewiston in 1986 as well.

So, unfortunately, all three of the states you mentioned have had school shootings in the past, despite their low populations.
That's all right, someone will write yet another article, explaining that guns has got nothing to do with it and it's all one big misunderstanding...
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Old 06-10-2012, 10:53 PM
 
Location: Lethbridge, AB
1,132 posts, read 1,941,237 times
Reputation: 978
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
Banning guns would eliminate the problem of depressed teens running amok at school, small children getting ahold of the parental gun and accidentally shooting their friends, psychos shooting people or cops (as happened a couple of months ago on a college campus), and so forth. Kids don't saw their friends with their dad's chainsaw, or run around highschool sawing random people in the hallways. Crimes of passion rarely involve chainsaws.
You missed the point of that analogy entirely. I'll rewrite it: If chainsaws making logging easier, and deforestation is a problem, why do we not blame chainsaws for deforestation rather than logging companies? We blame guns for deaths rather than criminals or the mentally ill - why is it different?


Quote:
Violent crime in countries that don't allow guns is lower than in the US. There's still violent crime in England, as someone pointed out, but the incidence of it is much lower, in spite of poverty, inequality, and a virtually insurmountable class system.
.

Are you sure about that?

Number of guns per capita by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Those two lists make for an interesting read - it's worth noting that several countries that are high on the ownership list are low on the homicide list. Austria, Norway, Sweden and Germany, for example, had higher gun ownership per capita than the UK, yet lower homicide rates. It should be clear then, that gun ownership and homicide are not necessarily tied together.

On the other hand, many of the countries with the highest homicide rates don't even rank on the list of gun ownership. Many of the also have extremely tight gun control legislation. However, it's just as clear that it hasn't work and hasn't made anyone safer.
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Old 06-10-2012, 11:11 PM
 
Location: Northern Sweden, Västerbotten County
85 posts, read 123,556 times
Reputation: 205
Freedom to me, is living in a place where I would not need to watch my back; I could just mind my own business living a peaceful life with my wonderful fiancée (and soon to be wife, if I play my cards right), having a job I love, a nice house a large garage and some old classic cars.

Actually, I have never understood this American way of thinking, that freedom is the right to carry a gun. How does that make you free? I love the United States and think it's a great place, but just that little thing is something I believe I'll never fully understand.
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Old 06-10-2012, 11:35 PM
 
689 posts, read 2,164,853 times
Reputation: 909
Quote:
Originally Posted by my54ford View Post
Good thing you moved out!!! As someone who has had to use a gun in personal defense on my own private property I can assure you that you are WRONG
If you're going to use your personal, anecdotal experience as a relevant entry in the body of argumentative data, you will need to be more explicit. Did you NEED to use a gun, as a last resort when all other remedial measures had failed, or did you CHOOSE to use a gun as a first resort simply because you had one? Or somewhere in between? There is a difference, you know.

Then, we need to know if your private property (say, some garden tools, or maybe a bicycle) is of sufficient import to protect with a measure of lethal firepower capable of killing instantly any human being.

As an element of logic, I can assure you that one's person's version of one singular anecdote from his personal life does not prove anybody wrong.

Last edited by CowanStern; 06-10-2012 at 11:53 PM..
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Old 06-11-2012, 12:36 AM
 
Location: Manila
1,139 posts, read 1,995,091 times
Reputation: 793
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stubblejumper View Post
You missed the point of that analogy entirely. I'll rewrite it: If chainsaws making logging easier, and deforestation is a problem, why do we not blame chainsaws for deforestation rather than logging companies? We blame guns for deaths rather than criminals or the mentally ill - why is it different?


.

Are you sure about that?

Number of guns per capita by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Those two lists make for an interesting read - it's worth noting that several countries that are high on the ownership list are low on the homicide list. Austria, Norway, Sweden and Germany, for example, had higher gun ownership per capita than the UK, yet lower homicide rates. It should be clear then, that gun ownership and homicide are not necessarily tied together.

On the other hand, many of the countries with the highest homicide rates don't even rank on the list of gun ownership. Many of the also have extremely tight gun control legislation. However, it's just as clear that it hasn't work and hasn't made anyone safer.

Agreed... I know most countries with higher homicide rates than the USA have much tighter gun laws than it... While the USA may have higher homicide rates than much of the OECD, it's rates for many other crimes are in line with other countries or even lower (particularly in areas outside inner city ghettos)...
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