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View Poll Results: Which 1st world nation has the worst quality of life in your opinion?
Japan 10 4.02%
South Korea 19 7.63%
Singapore 23 9.24%
United States 68 27.31%
Canada 1 0.40%
UK 21 8.43%
Ireland 3 1.20%
Italy 9 3.61%
France 1 0.40%
Spain 16 6.43%
Germany 3 1.20%
Denmark 0 0%
Sweden 3 1.20%
Poland 68 27.31%
New Zealand 4 1.61%
Voters: 249. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-09-2012, 01:30 PM
 
Location: Purgatory
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
If you're middle class or higher in the U.S., then the above doesn't really affect you. I don't understand why the U.S. would have a bad quality of life when it seems to me that things are more expensive relative to salaries in most other first world countries. For example, the prices of lot of things are probably 2 to 3 times higher in western European countries compared to the U.S. But are the salaries that much higher?
Actually, a lot of things aren't cheaper here. I've always said that if you're upper middle class or wealthy, the US is cheaper, but it is no fun at all to be poor here and even if I were lower middle class, I would probably live better/healthier in many European countries.

Examples: I have found that car insurance, car maintenance, healthy (fresh) food, mobile phones and of course healthcare are all more expensive this side of the pond. Gas/petrol is still much cheaper here, but cars are bigger and you need to drive much further. If you are not so well off, these things are going to affect you a lot more than someone upper middle class or above, who likely won't even feel it and will revel in the fact that they can buy a bigger house and earn more of a ridiculously high salary than they would in say, the UK.
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Old 06-09-2012, 01:41 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonborn View Post
^^
This.

I am glad that you see it this way. I do because I have lived in both the US & UK, though the UK fairs badly in social mobility too, but for quite different reasons.

It is better to have a society with a thriving middle class and lower levels of income disparity. That way, it's much more of a level playing field and generally, people have more chance of finding their niche. The problem with the US is that it is not a level playing field, generally people remain in the classes in which they're born into, plus the rich/poor gap here is ever-widening. Yet, you keep dangling the often unattainable carrot on the stick called the "American dream" in front of the horse with 2 broken legs.

People still believe that by just working hard and literally killing yourself, you'll be successful. That is not quality of life. You have millions of people chasing crappy jobs, sadelled with hefty student loans. God forbid you get sick too, even with insurance.

"Work 2 jobs, 3 jobs", "Pull yourself up by your bootstraps"...that what I see all the time.
You do realize, though, that this lack of upward mobility and the disparity between rich and poor, and so forth, is a recent development? One that we're hoping to correct, but it's difficult with such a polarized political system? There used to be a lot more bipartisanship in Congress, so it was easier to get things done. But we're getting off-topic.

People with health insurance do go bankrupt due to health care bills.
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Old 06-09-2012, 01:46 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonborn View Post
Examples: I have found that car insurance, car maintenance, healthy (fresh) food, mobile phones and of course healthcare are all more expensive this side of the pond. Gas/petrol is still much cheaper here, but cars are bigger and you need to drive much further. If you are not so well off, these things are going to affect you a lot more than someone upper middle class or above, who likely won't even feel it and will revel in the fact that they can buy a bigger house and earn more of a ridiculously high salary than they would in say, the UK.
Transport is an issue I was going to raise. In the US in many locales, there is no choice but to own a car. That right there is a huge burden on a person's economic situation. Many people who are required by circumstances to own a car can't afford to feed, care for and insure one. My idea of quality of life is a top-notch transport system that frees people of the economic burden of owning a car. It's liberating. The US used to have a good transport system (still behind Europe in some ways, especially the train system), but that was crushed by the car, oil and highway interests. Now only a few cities have good public transport, and inter-city transport is extremely sparse.

btw, the ridiculously high salaries are also a recent development, relatively speaking, and only apply to the financial services industry and certain corporate positions.
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Old 06-09-2012, 01:51 PM
 
Location: Ireland
92 posts, read 159,403 times
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@Ruth4Truth
Crime Rates would be included in the social environment factor, I'd imagine.
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Old 06-09-2012, 01:59 PM
 
Location: Purgatory
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
You do realize, though, that this lack of upward mobility and the disparity between rich and poor, and so forth, is a recent development? One that we're hoping to correct, but it's difficult with such a polarized political system? There used to be a lot more bipartisanship in Congress, so it was easier to get things done. But we're getting off-topic.

People with health insurance do go bankrupt due to health care bills.
I've only lived here for 8 1/2 years, so I don't know how it was before. I think that part of the "success" owes to the fact that during the 50's, the US prospered, while Europe and Japan were still recovering from WW2. There most likely was a lot of opportunity up until relatively recently. I have no doubt that at one time, you could succeed here by busting your ass. Those times have changed though and the American people need security, not just dreams to cling on to.

I agree that the political system here leaves a lot to be desired. It's far too partisan, politicians seem out of touch and nothing much gets done. I don't think that having just 2 main political parties helps either. If there were more mainstream parties, it might force the Democrats & Republicans to shake things up as they'd have competition to worry about.
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Old 06-09-2012, 02:10 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
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I'm wondering how public transport figures in to people's concept of quality of life. Is a good public transport system important?
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Old 06-09-2012, 02:11 PM
 
Location: Purgatory
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
Transport is an issue I was going to raise. In the US in many locales, there is no choice but to own a car. That right there is a huge burden on a person's economic situation. Many people who are required by circumstances to own a car can't afford to feed, care for and insure one. My idea of quality of life is a top-notch transport system that frees people of the economic burden of owning a car. It's liberating. The US used to have a good transport system (still behind Europe in some ways, especially the train system), but that was crushed by the car, oil and highway interests. Now only a few cities have good public transport, and inter-city transport is extremely sparse.

btw, the ridiculously high salaries are also a recent development, relatively speaking, and only apply to the financial services industry and certain corporate positions.
The only problem with attempting to implement European style public transport systems is that the majority of US cities are laid out and designed very differently, namely around the motor car. For example, a city such as Phoenix is full of urban sprawl, not just residential, but commercial, meaning that people aren't necessarily commuting just from the suburbs to downtown, but from suburbs to commercial/business parks that are located in a different suburb.

In the UK (my country of birth), we don't have anywhere near as much sprawl and people generally live in closer proximity to one another, so suburban rail systems generally work. They work in the northeastern cities of the US too, which are older and less car-centric.

The solution is to encourage people to live closer to work, regenerate the inner cities and build more affordable housing, with access to decent public transport. Encourage businesses to locate downtown, or at least centrally. Make US downtowns more "European" in the sense of being places where people work, shop, live and have fun.

Running a car is a huge financial burden. I spend more on running a car here than I ever did in the UK, largely because I *have* to drive much further. Even when I was living in the far less car-centric northeast, I still clocked up so many miles. The fact that gas is cheaper is largely irrelevant.
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Old 06-09-2012, 02:31 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonborn View Post

The solution is to encourage people to live closer to work, regenerate the inner cities and build more affordable housing, with access to decent public transport. Encourage businesses to locate downtown, or at least centrally. Make US downtowns more "European" in the sense of being places where people work, shop, live and have fun.
This was done very successfully in Seattle sometime around the 1980's or so. The downtown core got revitalized, and became a desirable place to live with good amenities.

Getting people to live closer to work is a complex problem not easily solved. The thing is, rents are cheaper the farther from downtown, or even the farther from town one gets. People are forced by economics to live far from work and to commute in. I realize this makes no sense from a practical standpoint, but it's all about land value. Also, Americans haven't been big on apartment-dwelling, they've been able, until recently, to cling to the idea of the single family home, the home as private castle, and all that. So again, homes are more affordable the farther from downtown and other desirable neighborhoods, like university neighborhoods, one gets. The whole system of property valuation would have to change in order for people to live closer to work, or the dream of owning a home (or even owning an apartment) would have to die. If it did die, that would solve the sprawl problem, though. And I agree, this practice of building vast commercial expanses on the edges of cities is horribly impractical. Some parts of California are European in that sense, where each neighborhood has its own little shopping street, so you can buy anything you need by taking a leisurely stroll from home. I love that!

This is probably why Americans have been able to cling to the belief so long that quality of life here is better than in Europe. In Europe it's rare for people to be able to own a detached home. Of course, this overlooks so many major advantages to life in European countries, but that's the American mindset. It's changing, though, as a result of the various economic crises, the housing loan fiasco, and so forth. People are beginning to realize that life here is looking a lot more like a Third World country. Even ragged little Ecuador has public health insurance, universal health care!
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Old 06-09-2012, 02:54 PM
 
7,855 posts, read 10,289,193 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
Add Crime Rate to your list ^^.

The amount of "free crap" the gov't hands out can directly affect citizens' ability to realize their dreams. If there were more scholarships and grants available to the poor and lower-middle class in the US, or if higher education were free to high achievers, for example, then upward mobility would improve and the vanishing middle class would actually grow. If there were universal health insurance, people wouldn't go bankrupt from medical expenses and see their dreams collapse.
a lot of europeans view the american attitude to goverment led efforts to limit inequality as pretty hysterical and paranoid

it might be down to the media but one thing that ive always found quite unique about america is how the less well off tend to oppose goverment efforts to curb the advantage of the wealthy , blue collar workers rush to the defense of rockafellar types , gas station attendant = dont raise taxes on warren buffett , im not paying enough it borders on masochism and is uniquely american IMO
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Old 06-09-2012, 03:00 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,210 posts, read 107,883,295 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irish_bob View Post
a lot of europeans view the american attitude to goverment led efforts to limit inequality as pretty hysterical and paranoid

it might be down to the media but one thing that ive always found quite unique about america is how the less well off tend to oppose goverment efforts to curb the advantage of the wealthy , blue collar workers rush to the defense of rockafellar types , gas station attendant = dont raise taxes on warren buffett , im not paying enough it borders on masochism and is uniquely american IMO
Conservative propaganda is very effective at getting people to vote against their own interests. It's very puzzling, and alarming. I don't understand how people can fall for that.
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