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Old 07-11-2012, 02:11 PM
 
Location: Top of the South, NZ
22,216 posts, read 21,705,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by russiaonline View Post
Killing for food is not what your kids did.


Not a kid's job for sure.


Hunting is generally accepted here. Slaughter, especially by kids, is not.
How is it slaughter exactly? You don't seem to have much understanding of how animals need to be controlled in some situations. Why shouldn't kids be able to shoot an animal? It's not some scared task. It's what happens in the real world.

As I've said, if you eat meat, wear leather etc. , it's the same thing. You just seem to think not pulling the trigger makes you morally superior. I think it just means you don't want to get your hands dirty, and have a "out of sight,out of mind" attitude.
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Old 07-11-2012, 09:25 PM
 
26,798 posts, read 22,587,866 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bartonfly View Post
It's not true, in Russia is a barbaric relation to the animals, while the Russian laws are very soft for killing of animals, but not always even these laws are working.
Oh, don't listen to russiaonline. Whatever he/she believes in ( and his friends/family) that must be true for the rest of the country.
I wish it were the case, because he/she does come across as a rather nice person, ( just not all that experienced in life.)
Of course most outrageous cases of animal abuse in Europe ( and particularly the treatment of stray animals) are coming from Russia.
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Old 07-11-2012, 09:33 PM
 
26,798 posts, read 22,587,866 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
How is it slaughter exactly? You don't seem to have much understanding of how animals need to be controlled in some situations. Why shouldn't kids be able to shoot an animal? It's not some scared task. It's what happens in the real world.
Because children should be taught to be kind and compassionate, and love for little critters comes rather naturally at the younger age. Why destroy their world of childhood and point at those critters as mere nuisance? There are a lot of ugly things in the "real world" but I hope you are not in a hurry to introduce your children to all that ugliness, because it doesn't belong in childhood. Killing of animals shouldn't belong there either, or your children will grow up as ruthless and indifferent adults.
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Old 07-11-2012, 10:30 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Of course most outrageous cases of animal abuse in Europe ( and particularly the treatment of stray animals) are coming from Russia.
This is done by individuals, and is absolutely not accepted by society. Doghunters are ill people, and there's anekdotik evidence that they are been hunted down themselves. You won't find doghunters openly admitting their deads.
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Old 07-11-2012, 10:38 PM
 
1,725 posts, read 2,069,341 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
How is it slaughter exactly? You don't seem to have much understanding of how animals need to be controlled in some situations.
Killing different critters on sight can hardly be considered as just a population control.

Quote:
Why shouldn't kids be able to shoot an animal? It's not some scared task. It's what happens in the real world.
Human kids grow up seeing animals like humans. And you teach them that killing animals is good...

Quote:
As I've said, if you eat meat, wear leather etc. , it's the same thing.
As I've said, the analogy is - killing enemies at war, and killing ordirnary people is the same thing.
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Old 07-11-2012, 11:32 PM
 
Location: Top of the South, NZ
22,216 posts, read 21,705,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Because children should be taught to be kind and compassionate, and love for little critters comes rather naturally at the younger age. Why destroy their world of childhood and point at those critters as mere nuisance? There are a lot of ugly things in the "real world" but I hope you are not in a hurry to introduce your children to all that ugliness, because it doesn't belong in childhood. Killing of animals shouldn't belong there either, or your children will grow up as ruthless and indifferent adults.
I have to say that I really don't get this argument at all. I don't know any ruthless and indifferent adults who hunted as children (not to say that there aren't any). I hunted rabbits from about the age of 8, and trapped possums (for money) from about 12, and certainly don't regard myself as ruthless or indifferent.

Rabbits are cute little critters, but they can be pests as well. Kids are capable of accepting that, and if they don't, I wouldn't force them to.

Indifference ? how about fish shaped chicken nuggets ? ( I actually saw these in a supermarket recently ) How would eating these teach children about compassion ? Ending a rabbit's life instantly, and without suffering is a far more valuable lesson in compassion.

A second hand story I remember from a few years ago, was of a dog hit by a car and surrounded by people who couldn't bring themselves to put it out of it's misery. Someone finally killed it with a rock to the head (the person who told me). One of the other people said that it was distressing, he replied " not like it was for the dog you selfish a******s". There was no compassion there, until he displayed it.
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Old 07-12-2012, 01:37 AM
 
1,725 posts, read 2,069,341 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
and certainly don't regard myself as ruthless or indifferent.
That means nothing. Chikatilo, a famous Soviet maniac, considered himself normal.

Quote:
Ending a rabbit's life instantly, and without suffering is a far more valuable lesson in compassion.
It can only teach a child that killing is no big deal, and can even be a good thing.
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Old 07-12-2012, 02:13 AM
 
Location: Top of the South, NZ
22,216 posts, read 21,705,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by russiaonline View Post
That means nothing. Chikatilo, a famous Soviet maniac, considered himself normal.


It can only teach a child that killing is no big deal, and can even be a good thing.
So now you can't distinguish between someone who eats other people, and someone who shoots animals? More of your moral superiority.

Killing an animal isn't actually a big deal. If you eat meat, you should know that.
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Old 07-12-2012, 02:57 AM
 
1,725 posts, read 2,069,341 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
Killing an animal isn't actually a big deal. If you eat meat, you should know that.
Actually, it's a very big deal, but is a justified evil. Some Russian farmers can't even kill a chicken themselves.

Once again, I don't argue about what's normal in your society.
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Old 07-12-2012, 04:40 AM
 
Location: Oxford, England
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I went hunting with my Grand-Father and Great-Uncle as a child and I am anything if indiferrent and ruthless to animals. My Husband would tell you I am about the biggest softie when it comes to animals in fact and I can't even watch those adverts for animal refuges as it upsets me so much. I get really emotional when I see animals in zoos, factory farming and have been volunteering for Greenpeace since I was 13, almost thirty years of it. I love animals. I do not like to see them treated with contempt and disrespected and going to Seaworld for example would make me feel quite ill.

I can't abide people who keep birds in cages or even reptiles, insects etc... in vivarium. Tropical fish tanks make my skin crawl because of the cruelty of it all.

Hunting if anything taught me about respecting animals and ensuring that they do not suffer. It also taught me a valuable lesson about never killing for pleasure, and despising those who do. It taught me about Nature, animal husbandry and the environment which surrounds us and how to treasure it. I really resent someone likening hunting as a child to one of the worst serial killer of all times.

A parent who is a good hunter will teach his children respect for the animal and respect for the environment. They will teach them values about life and death and the cycle of life. As an Anthropologist ( and Archaeologist) I have been fortunate to spend some time with different tribes where children are taught from an early age to hunt and fish and these tend to be the most gentle and hospitable people you can hope to meet.

Killing is not what matters but how it is done, and what is learnt from it. Children do need to learn about life and death and we are doing them no favours by letting them be so remote from their food source that they do not see what the food on their plates mean. If anything to me that is far more perverted. And lazy , complacent and willfully ignorant.
Allowing children to believe that animals come pre packaged in packets and thus it is no big deal to eat meat is negligent IMO.

They need to learn that the meat comes from breathing living creatures who feel pain and fear, animals who deserve to be reared on the principles of good animal husbandry and treated and transported humanely. Which most mass produced meat is not.

It is a farce when you see the crap kids will eat and not care a jot about it was produced and came to be miraculously wrapped in cling film.


As for Russia, I have been there a few times and hunting was pretty prevalent. And I saw many animals being treated pretty appallingly whether dogs, horses and pigs. Animal husbandry and animal rights does not seem to be very high on the agenda of most Russians in my experience.

I actually care what I put on the table. I am a fussy customer when I buy meat, I want to know its provenance and how it was reared. I am an informed consumer because unlike a lot of people I actually want to be informed and seek to keep in the know. And hunting was the beginning of the journey which took me to becoming more aware of food production.

I don't ever remember a hunting party when we whooped with joy because we had brought down a deer or wild boar or laughing with glee because we had shot a pheasant or a rabbit. It was not about fun and going "gotcha !!" as some creature.

It was simply a natural process and we did it as humanely and cleanly as we could. To this day I will stop if I see an injured bird on the side of the road to see whether it needs to be put out of its misery. It will upset me to twist the neck of a bird but I will do it rather than see it suffer a long drawn out painful death.

Whilst so called "compassionate" drivers will drive on feeling squeamish and pretending to care but unwilling to do what is the kindest thing. Because of some ridiculous taboo about killing when we profit from the killing of animals every single day, whether we eat meat, wear leather or for many people in Russia wear fur ( most fur by the way is produced in the most appalling conditions for the animals concerned).

So spare me the serial killer analogy, I am a meat eater and I take responsibility for it. I now expect someone else to do the dirty work for me but I care about the process. I refuse to close my eyes and go "nah, nah, nah I'm not listening " and refuse to be blindfully ignorant because it makes it easier to think that getting someone else to kill it makes me somehow more compassionate and caring. That to me is quite sick and twisted.

Of course if some moron teaches his kids to love the sight of blood and teaches them to torment animals they will probably grow up a bit twisted and uncaring towards other living creatures. But that is not what real hunting is about.

Hunting is a natural process, and one I genuinely believe everyone should experience at least once.

Don't get me started on fox hunting though a pursuit I find vile, degraded and perverted. If Foxes are pests by all means control the population but some morons on horseback chasing a fox which more often than not has been trapped and released so there is no disappointment for the hunters, chasing them until they are cornered , exhausted and almost maddened with terror is NOT hunting.

They call it a sport which tells you everything you need to know about hunting. Killing should never a be a sport. Not that there is anything sporting about this deviant pursuit anyway. And at the first kill the novice hunter dips his hand in the blood of the fox and smears it over his face in some barbaric taunt to the animal , a kind of gloating I find despicable and grotesque.

I went on a stag hunt once on horseback because I wanted to find out exactly what those people were like. And I came out sickened as I expected to be and have been lobbying agaisnt hunting with hounds on horseback ever since.

A good hunt IMO is when the animal has a decent chance and the odds are not stacked against it. With bigger animals especially you often come back empty handed and that is fine.


Animals Petition: Introduce Federal Laws on Animal Protection in Russia | Change.org

Compared to the rest of Europe , Russia still seems quite behind when it comes to mandated animal rights.... I am glad awareness is growing but I am not sure we need lessons from Russia quite yet about hunting. Being a vegetarian in Russia is actually not that easy and not that well understood in my experience for example...

Last edited by Mooseketeer; 07-12-2012 at 04:52 AM..
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