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Old 07-24-2012, 05:27 PM
 
4,040 posts, read 7,441,759 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elnina View Post
To a degree - yes! Kids need to fear discipline. They need to have an idea that bad behavior will be punished, and they need to fear that punishment. Otherwise there will be NOTHING that would stop them from acting like little evils. Kids that don't fear punishment end often in jail or end having a sad, lonely, disappointing life.
It's the same as with adults. Most adults fear punishment. They do not want to lose their job, or spouse, or go to jail. That fear prevents most from doing wrong.
I absolutely agree. Many have made this "do-you-want-your-child-to-fear-you?" line a trade-mark of the righteousness of their movement. I am often tempted to answer: "Actually, I wouldn't mind".

When they are 20+, THEN I will want my children to understand me, not fear me.
Nature will take its course, their brains will develop and they WILL understand me - of that I am 100% convinced.
In the meantime, a bit of fear would be wonderful, thank you so much!
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Old 07-25-2012, 01:59 AM
 
Location: Sweden
23,857 posts, read 71,327,152 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa View Post
Because the adult brain can deal with rational explanations; children's brains are in development and for many, rational explanations do not work. Training only will.

Quit asking rhetorical questions whose answers you know very well but you pretend you don't.
No, I don't know the answer and I don't understand why it is ok to hit a child.
It is never ever ok to hit a child!
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Old 07-25-2012, 03:01 AM
 
5,653 posts, read 5,152,805 times
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My children when they were little used to get a tap on the backside and an "Oi!" It had enough force to make them aware and after a while they all recognised the "Oi!" for being what it was and that was enough. This was when they're little up to about 4yrs i suppose.

Of course as they got older they'd get the occasional 'Right Royal B*ll*cking' at various volumes and the odd clip around the back of the head, note i said a clip, not punching them to the edge of insensibility. Never had or felt a need to use more force than that. They're now 21, 18 and 13 and seem a fairly untraumatised bunch who know where the limits are. I think that as society/people tend to use warning words and tones to alert people to 'acceptable' limits rather than striking them that using words and tones when 'training' your children at home makes more sense.

Like a few others have mentioned when i was a school we had corporal punishment (caneing)and it had absolutley no affect on any of us. It wasn't a discouragement, it was just part of school.
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Old 07-25-2012, 03:06 PM
 
4,040 posts, read 7,441,759 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggy001 View Post
Nope, I just totally and fundamentally disagree with you and the others who advocate hitting kids. Your excuses and rationalization are, in my view, just a way of explaining away your poor parenting skills or your own frustrations which you choose to take out on your kids. Alternatively, you may just be blindly copying the upbringing you experienced fro your own parents.

I have no expectation that you will agree with me. But, by the same token, nothing you can say will persuade me that your rationalization with regard to hitting is anything more than that.
You dont need to be persuaded of anything. You just need to abstain from pushing for laws that prohibit other parents from raising their children the way they see fit. 'Keep your parenting style to your household, I'll keep mine to my household.
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Old 07-25-2012, 05:20 PM
 
1,446 posts, read 4,597,493 times
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Quote:
You dont need to be persuaded of anything. You just need to abstain from pushing for laws that prohibit other parents from raising their children the way they see fit. 'Keep your parenting style to your household, I'll keep mine to my household.
That's if your style of parenting does not led to emotional/psychological damage. I am not taking a position yet on corporal punishment. I am just saying that there are limits to how a parent can raise there kids. For example, you can not break your kids arms and legs literally, just because you feel that it is your right to discipline them like that. Your rights as a parent do have limits, like it or not, because the child is still a human being by law. Now if you want to debate whether or not corporal punishment can led to emotional or psychological damage, than that's fine. We can debate that. However, we should leave the argument that parents can do whatever the heck they want out of here. Therefore, the issue whether or not corporal punishment should be allowed should be based on whether or not it is healthy, not around the argument whether or not the parent can do whatever they want.
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Old 07-25-2012, 08:11 PM
 
43,657 posts, read 44,385,284 times
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Corporal punishment of children by parents, is unlawful in the following countries:

Austria - since 1989
Bulgaria - since 2000
Congo - since 2010
Costa Rica - since 2008
Croatia - since 1999
Cyprus - since 1994
Denmark - since 1997
Estonia - since 1993[3]
Finland - since 1983
Germany - since 2000
Greece - since 2007
Hungary - since 2004
Iceland - since 2003
Israel - since 2000, when the Israeli Supreme Court ruled that corporal punishment violated the right to dignity and bodily integrity.
Kenya - since 2010
Latvia - since 1998
Liechtenstein - since 2008
Luxembourg - since 2008
Moldova - since 2009
Netherlands - since 2007
New Zealand - since 2007, when the Crimes (Substituted Section 59) Amendment Act 2007 came into force.
Norway - since 1987 The Norwegian Supreme Court ruled in 2005 that a light "careful slap" applied immediately after the "offence" was still allowed. Legislature abolished this in 2010, and the current law is that any violence against children, including careful slaps, is prohibited.)
Poland - since 2010
Portugal - since 2007
Romania - since 2004
South Sudan - since 2011
Spain - since 2007
Sweden - Parents' right to spank their own children was first removed in 1966,[9] and it was explicitly prohibited by law from July 1979.
Togo - since 2007
Tunisia - since 2010
Ukraine - since 2004
Uruguay - since 2007
Venezuela - since 2007
The penalties vary by country. In Sweden, for example, corporal punishment does not necessarily carry a criminal penalty unless it meets the criteria for assault.

In Brazil, a law banning corporal punishment is being considered.
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Old 07-25-2012, 08:45 PM
 
73,009 posts, read 62,598,043 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggy001 View Post
Having been a parent (mine are 31 and 25) one of the things I have realized is that hitting a child is not a more effective means of discipline than a raised voice or other sanctions. Usually, it is a thoughtless and instant reaction and is often borne out of frustration on the part of the adult. It is also an indication of the inadequacies of the adult as a parent.

Now, with our grandson, we find that consistency of approach, setting expectations (e.g. we always eat at table and not in front of the TV) and never making promises that we will not keep removes much of the need for discipline. When he does test the limits - and all kids do - then either a raised voice or sending him to his room is more than enough.
In some cases, spanking doesn't work. For me, for instance. I did get spanked as a kid and restricted. The older I got, the less it worked. When I was in my teens, I didn't get anything out of a spanking or getting things taken away other than "don't get caught". If I didn't feel guilty or sorry for my actions, any punishment dealt to me wouldn't work. As a teenager, I was basically "look out for me and forget everyone else". When my mentality changed, spanking wasn't necessary. Guilt worked better than punishment for me.
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Old 07-25-2012, 10:00 PM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,544 posts, read 56,054,732 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elnina View Post
^^^^^ I agree with it 100%
there is a light smack or two on the butt, when EVERYTHING ELSE failed ( and most kids usually comply with it ) and there is a "cold heart" beating with all the preparation (pants down, bring belt, lie down etc.). Most people against discipline seem NOT TO SEE THE DIFFERENCE.

I got my share at home and in the school ( yep, got smacked with the ruler or pointing stick ). Additional to staying after class, standing in the corner during the class, special homework assignments etc.
At home I got a various array of discipline: from soft talk and explanation, to no allowances, no TV or pleasure time, grounded for days, weeks or longer, strong supervision, AND occasional spanking, yes!
Loving parents tried everything with a big dose of patience, but no one is a saint.
I don't feel "psychologically damaged", or otherwise traumatic abused. In fact, I smile when I think about how my parent loved me, protected me and gave me an education and good home.

Now look at some kids today. Spoiled brats, demanding, talking back, some verbally AND physically abusive to their parents, do not accept any authority, do what they want, and when parents try to discipline them, they call Child Protection Service!
If parents can't raise their kids ( don't know how/dont have time or patience/ don't have morals/are lost or helpless), school can't help them - then what? Who supposed to do that job? Street and peers?
I agree, as a last resort and never out of anger.

Most parents want the best for their kids, so I think they've got their hearts in the right place. However they are still human, and I've seen some parents cross the line into abuse. On principle, I also don't like the idea that kids need to be spanked to be good. I was smacked maybe twice as a child and I was a pretty good kid (cheeky at times, but what kid isn't?).
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Old 07-26-2012, 05:36 AM
 
14,247 posts, read 17,921,045 times
Reputation: 13807
Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa View Post
You dont need to be persuaded of anything. You just need to abstain from pushing for laws that prohibit other parents from raising their children the way they see fit. 'Keep your parenting style to your household, I'll keep mine to my household.
I will push for any law I agree with. And if it involves limiting the abuse of kids .........
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Old 07-26-2012, 07:43 AM
 
Location: The heart of Cascadia
1,327 posts, read 3,180,478 times
Reputation: 848
I think people who severely physically abuse their children should be taken as seriously as those who abuse them sexually. As far as spanking and stuff, I'm against it personally and wouldn't do it but I think it shouldn't be illegal, I'm talking like parents who belt the living daylights out of their kids, or hit them with objects and stuff like that.
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