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It seems like there’s an irrational obsession with dethroning the United States and its NATO allies as the most powerful superpower in the world. It’s so insane and stupid. It’s 2024, not 1893 so who gives a damn if you’re the world’s bully and oppressor? What exactly are their goals by achieving this?
France and Portugal used to have huge colonial empires around Africa, Asia, the Americas. They gave that up, now they work with their former rivals and have the highest level of prosperity they could possibly want for their people, peace and good relations with the rest of the world. I get that China and Russia are authoritarian dictatorships, but it seems like even if they democratized, their people would still support working towards this goal of taking over as the worlds great power instead of the US.
What makes their politics so fixated on this? Is it Confucianism? Slavic mythology? It makes zero sense. Japan used to be America’s biggest enemy, now they’re allies and they’ve spread their culture around the world with the arts and technological advancements. Why don’t China or Russia want the same thing for their country?
It honestly seems like a death cult/suicide pact where someone would try and make the whole world your enemy by framing them all as “Western oppressors”. What makes a country “western” or “imperialist”? For wanting things like free and fair elections, freedom of the press and separation of powers in their governments.?
I really hope with the internet and freedom of information through VPNs and whatnot Russia and China stop with this nonsense
1) Putin feels slighted by the west. He feels that after the Cold War ended, NATO should have disbanded and Russia should have been fully integrated into the world.
2) I am not sure that the Chinese people largely give a damn about being #1. The Communist party harbors some deep resentment because China was historically the greatest nation in the world for most of history, and was divided and more or less made to grovel before the western powers before the Communist reunification.
I am not an expert, but this is what I infer from history.
Well speaking for China and the US, let's examine both those countries.
China:
- Is 4X the population of America. If China were ever to become as rich as America then naturally China will far exceed America regardless of whether or not they want to be number 1. It is a natural and reasonable desire for developing countries like China to bring themselves up to the modern standards they see elsewhere around the globe.
- In the summit meetings Chinese officials had with their American counterparts in recent years, the Chinese have repeatedly mentioned that they "do not aim to replace the US", "they want win-win cooperation", and has accused the US of treating this as a zero-sum game.
The US:
- Has the Monroe Doctrine.
- Had the Project for the new American century - though now supposedly defunct, many of the current US policies seem to reflect on the recommendations from that organisation.
- Has the concept of "American Exceptionalism".
- Has the constant framing of geopolitics as good vs evil. Ie, one side is "democratic" (the "good" side) and the other is "totalitarian" (the "bad" side). And hence the other side must be crushed, subdued or changed to be assimilated into the US system, because that means they're crushing or assimilating evil.
Perhaps the following is a subconscious thing, but in my opinion it is observeable... The US has an implicit, deep rooted belief that their system and concept of American "values", is superior and righteous over others. There's a specific word for this behaviour of belief in superiority and righteousness, but I'm not gonna mention it. You'll figure it out.
So based on observation, I think it's fairly straight forward to figure out which side has the higher drive to contain the other to remain world no.1.
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Originally Posted by pdw
France and Portugal used to have huge colonial empires around Africa, Asia, the Americas. They gave that up, now they work with their former rivals and have the highest level of prosperity they could possibly want for their people, peace and good relations with the rest of the world.
Macron and France is still bitter that Niger broke away from them last year.
Because Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping are two delusional individuals with a mania for grandeur.
Agree.
China has more much money to throw around and Jinping has been pouring in cash,
infrastruct to various poor countries to be able extort them later...very smart ....
catching the West asleep at the wheel.....they call it "Belt and Road" ....
The US really cemented itself as the world’s most powerful country after WWII. Before that, it was seen as the British. The First World War was almost a time where Germany was equally as powerful as Britain. Early in the 1800s the French were probably giving the British a run for their money. Japan had aspirations of becoming a mega empire in the 1930s and 40s. All these countries gave this crap up. It’s 19th century thinking. It’s mutually beneficial to trade, collaborate with rival nations than attempt to militarily strongman your way to the top. I’m not talking about China becoming the world’s biggest economy. That’s inevitable if their GDP per capita catches up to the West. Russia is not even close, having an economy roughly the size of Canada’s in nominal GDP. This isn’t about economics, these countries literally want to carve out their own little empires of countries they can bully and manipulate politics in. Not saying the US doesn’t do its own meddling, but it’s nothing like what Russia has done in Ukraine or what the CCP is planning on doing in Taiwan. Why do they care so much about being “against” the West instead of just taking a chill pill with their military aspirations and focus on their own standard of living, which unquestionably would improve drastically with better ties to the West. Russia and China could have their own economic miracles like have happened in places like Spain, Italy, Japan, etc and become fully developed countries. All they are doing is ruining their own chances of that because they think they’re too special to not be a military antagonist to the United States. It’s ridiculous.
Why do they care so much about being “against” the West.
All they are doing is ruining their own chances of that because they think they’re too special to not be a military antagonist to the United States.
Where has Chinese officials explicitly mentioned they want to antagonise the US just for the sake? They have always maintained along the lines of "We want cooperation with you, but if you antagonise us then we will respond in kind". One side can attack the other but if the other retaliates, that's aggressive and antagonistic. Such is American Exceptionalism.
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This isn’t about economics, these countries literally want to carve out their own little empires of countries they can bully and manipulate politics in. Not saying the US doesn’t do its own meddling, but it’s nothing like what Russia has done in Ukraine or what the CCP is planning on doing in Taiwan.
Well how many countries has USA invaded or bombed over the last 70 years? Syria? Libya? Iraq? Afghanistan? Serbia? Cambodia? Laos? Guantanamo Bay? Abu Ghraib? Waaaayyy too many to list.
Now how many countries has China intervened in the same period? Korean War and?
The US has an entire org dedicated to absolutely nothing but foreign interference and regime change. I'll give you a hint. It starts with "National", ends with "Democracy", and has "Endowment" in the middle. Go to their website and find out just how absolutely pervasive the US NED has been, and continues to be, around the entire globe. Influence and interference operations disguised under good sounding names. Seriously. China or any other country has no such equivalent.
The power of US media influence, makes you forget what the US has inflicted on others, while antagonising another country, based on a purely speculative invasion the US mainstream media is hyping up, but. Has. Not. Even. Happened.
Who stands to gain the most from a China-Taiwan war? The United States.
I'm getting 2002 vibes again. Evil dictator Saddam/Xi about to nuke the world with WMDs/invade Taiwan, USA the virtuous country must do something to stop that evil. I hope I'm wrong but I'm not convinced.
Only this time unlike Iraq or Syria or Libya or Serbia so on so forth, China is no small fry that can be bullied or pressured to submission. And it shows when you look at the part of the world away from the Western influence sphere, which is the global majority, and see who they're increasingly siding with. It's proving increasingly impossible for one country to send another 4X the population back to the dark ages, so itself can remain on top.
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instead of just taking a chill pill with their military aspirations
The US spends 3X more on its military than China and has more than a thousand military bases around the globe, thousands of miles away from its own shores. Including something like over 50 immediately surrounding China like a noose. China has how many overseas bases? 2 or 3?
Meanwhile Chinese military strategy is based almost exclusively on deterring the US around its vicinity. Who has the more military ambition? China or the US Empire?
One side can spend 3X more than the other, but if the other increases its spending inline with economic growth, then that's aggressive. American Exceptionalism.
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and focus on their own standard of living, which unquestionably would improve drastically with better ties to the West. Russia and China could have their own economic miracles like have happened in places like Spain, Italy, Japan, etc and become fully developed countries.
Isn't that precisely what it's been doing? People conveniently forget now that China before the 1970s looked worse than North Korea does today. Look up China back then. The Chinese government is far from perfect like any other government. But when it comes purely to raising living standards the hard fact is that no economic miracle in any country over the last 50 years, Spain and Japan included comes close to what China's done. It's not something to be discredited.
But I assure you, the US Neocon backed government, would rather see China get back to the Mao era where its people were starving, because that means it's too dirt poor to challenge US supremacy. And that is observeable fact. Nixon's USA LOVED Mao's China in the 70s.
I think it's better for one to fix own problems first before they antagonise others. Those who do without reflecting on their own faults and hold themselves accountable, don't have the moral authority to judge others. I'm not directing this towards any country, it's just a reasonable thing.
China is not a direct threat to the US. It is a threat to US hegemony, and the "American exceptionalism" mindset. Or rather the belief of US moral and systemic superiority over others.
“These authoritarian leaders in the third world have the same anti-West agenda as China/Russia! Clearly the will of the people in these non democratic countries (where millions try and immigrate to the US) is to re-align away from the US and towards China and Russia”
Pure delusion. I’m Canadian, I don’t have any desire to defend every military action the US takes. It’s undeniable though that the period since World War II has been by a huge margin the most peaceful in history. The US makes mistakes but it doesn’t have to propagandize its population with media censorship, throwing the opposition out of windows or in prison and detaining dissidents without trial to keep them in line. There’s things to criticize about the US for sure, does not mean the world would be a better place with authoritarian regimes like China and Russia being able to manipulate and bully the rest of the world. Countries that align with the US and largely democratic and have governments that can either agree or disagree with certain US foreign policy moves based on their own conscience. If Lukashenko condemned the Ukraine war and blocked Russian arms from its territory, what do you think would happen? If Taiwan joined a NATO type alliance with the US, what do you think would happen?
What kind of political system China has is up to the Chinese not to us, I guess. The Chinese people give their country's interests probably a higher priority than their individual interests. Who are we to judge them? The West is mainly about me, me and me and people are very selfish and egocentric, they argue.
Perhaps the Chinese have a more collectivist mindset indeed. But I think there's one ethos that permeates Chinese culture - pragmatism. That is they're not so concerned about ideologies and intangible values as long as their lives and living standards are positively improving.
The Chinese leader by the name of Deng Xiaoping who reformed China economically after the Mao era, had one famous quote which sums it up pretty well: "It doesn't matter whether it's a black cat or white cat, as long as it catches mice then it's a good cat".
Otoh I think you can argue the US is heavily ideological. Freedom and democracy. That's also fine as long as they're happy with it, each to their own. But I suppose Chinese people are so oppressed they're just waiting for the US to come and free them from themselves haha...
These authoritarian leaders in the third world have the same anti-West agenda as China/Russia! Clearly the will of the people in these non democratic countries (where millions try and immigrate to the US) is to re-align away from the US and towards China and Russia
When it goes the other way then they're an "expat" lol.
Either way people immigrate because they seek better living standards, not because of intangible ideologies like "Western values" or "democracy". Singapore is a one party state. Caning is legal, chewing gum banned. Yet people still immigrate to Singapore by their masses, and Singapore is way, way safer than anywhere in the US.
US economic dominance over the last 80 years has ensured countries that are like-minded or subservient to the US, reap the best economic benefits to improve their living standards. Those with different systems like Cuba or Venezuela are sanctioned to oblivion.
The rise of China has given an opportunity for the rest of the world to improve their living standards through trade and cooperation. That's why the US is so panicky about China. Not only is it giving the world a successful alternate system, but it's doing it with a system that's different to the US.
But how can the US or West let that happen when it's determined itself to be the most morally and ideologically authoritative system in the world?
China isn't a direct threat the the US, it's a threat to US hegemony and its American exceptionalist mindset.
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Countries that align with the US and largely democratic and have governments that can either agree or disagree with certain US foreign policy moves based on their own conscience.
In 2009, the Japanese PM Hatoyama was elected in a landslide victory over a promise to move a US military base off the Japanese island of Okinawa. After the election the US pressured him to keep the base there, and he caved in. Less than a year later he was forced to resign over that base. And that US base in Okinawa is still there, against the will of the Japanese people, thanks to the US government. So much for "democracy".
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It’s undeniable though that the period since World War II has been by a huge margin the most peaceful in history.
Peaceful.. I don't know what to make of that claim lol. Which country has started and engaged in the most wars BY FAR over these last 70 years? The country which has been constantly at war with another, usually smaller fry through virtually the entire period? The country that has the most amount of orgs and levers to carry out foreign interference and regime change operations worldwide?
You don't feel the casualties being inflicted by that country because that country does its stuff overseas away from the sight of its own citizens.
For much of the last 80 years there's been the Cold war and threat of M-A-D with a competing superpower that prevented a full scale war. After the USSR collapse there's been no one to challenge US supremacy enough to start a full scale war apart from the US invading little fries, until now. Nuclear MAD still exists, so I hope that helps prevent another world war for the sake of global survival.
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The US makes mistakes but it doesn’t have to propagandize its population with media censorship, throwing the opposition out of windows or in prison and detaining dissidents without trial to keep them in line.
US makes mistakes. Vietnam, agent orange, hundreds of thousands of people mutated. Whoopsie, one big mistake. Laos, US landmines endangering people there. Whoops, we made a mistake. Assange? No censorship, we only see a criminal.
In a mistake here and there, millions of lives has been affected worldwide. But there's no accountability. As long as there is only 1 dominant country calling all the shots in this world then that country will continue to do whatever it wants and get away. Whoops, we made another mistake how can we? Carry on.
And when the global media environment is dominated by that country it means that whatever opinions you're getting are naturally sympathetic to that country's agenda.
The danger with US media influence is that people do not even realise they're being manipulated. The US holds influence over the vast majority of global media with an influence strategy that's honed over decades. When it comes to propaganda wars USA is absolute world number one, be proud of that.
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If Taiwan joined a NATO type alliance with the US, what do you think would happen?
A Taiwan-US NATO type alliance will pretty much establish Taiwan as an official legitimate country. This breaks the agreement the US made with the PRC in 1972 that made the current peace and status quo within Taiwan possible.
Interestingly we now know thanks to wikileaks, that internal US documents show the Taiwan DPP and former president Tsai Ing Wen, disclosed internal Taiwanese political affairs to the US, starting at least back in the 2000s when they were still in opposition. Inviting a foreign nation to your own internal affairs that your own people are unaware of, is this democracy?
Tsai Ing Wen held a relationship with the US NED. The "Taiwanese government" website documents the meetings she's had with the NED, and from the NED website you can see the NED awarded Tsai overtly. Why does Tsai need a relationship with an org like the NED, which is run by directors who are either involved with, or explicitly express support for regime changes around the world?
The institution located within Taiwan called the "Taiwan Foundation for Democracy", has inextricable links to the US NED in terms of its founding and operations. Point is I think there's more going on behind the scenes than you think. Way more.
The United States stands to gain the most geopolitical benefit from a China-Taiwan war.
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There’s things to criticize about the US for sure, does not mean the world would be a better place with authoritarian regimes like China and Russia being able to manipulate and bully the rest of the world.
No government is perfect. I think The US civilian population has less control over their government's policies than they realise. The US deep state wields significant influence at the core of the establishment regardless of which of the 2 parties are elected. Unelected neocons like Victoria Nuland or Linday Graham hold enough power within the government to make the calls foreign policy wise.
Calls of the same "authoritarian" vs "democracy" cliches aren't working anymore. It does not matter how bad or evil the US says whatever country is, the majority of the global population is dedollarising and pulling away.
There is no one country that holds any moral, ethical or systemic superiority over another. I think the US will have to face that fact sooner not later.
Last edited by djgoeejg; 04-02-2024 at 01:52 PM..
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