Tokyo vs London vs Paris vs New York (how much, homes)

[Wisteria]

NYCtoTokyo:
If you can break into a solid mid-career salary job at a western style company then I honestly believe Tokyo can't be beat if you are looking for the true mega city experience, at least for a single guy. The main reason, as previously stated, is because with a mid-career salary it is one of the only places where I believe you can thoroughly enjoy the big city life to almost it's full extent. Of course to do that it will be very important to learn Japanese to a pretty high level and so that is the "catch" as they say.

Some fresh grad with no experience who only expects to make 30k a year or so starting? None of the cities listed are going to be much fun.

55-90k or so? At this range I think Tokyo is almost incomparably good if you are someone who wants the maximum big city experience.

Which companies are "western-style?" And you stated "single guy," and Japan being paternalistic, what about "single woman?"

Japanese companies don't want foreigners, so are you referring to American companies with offices in Japan/Tokyo?

I can see where Tokyo is better than the rest of Japan -- it is more used to foreigners than most of the rest of the country.

I only ask because my daughter completed a year of study at Kyushu University (Fukuoka - in the south), and she speaks Japanese, but the outlook in Japan for women is not great, plus, for foreigners (at least at any Japanese company) is almost nil. Yes, Japanese is very difficult, and the various forms (i.e. Honorific) can be "horrific." But she's good with her Japanese, so that's not an issue (although I'd think for most people who have not mastered Japanese, it definitely could be a hurdle as not many Japanese actually speak English well if at all).

My kid's in Hong Kong now for the year, and although she speaks some Chinese (Mandarin) and uses Cantonese in Hong Kong, she's still talking about Japan again, although the culture shock in the south was pretty intense. There's an obvious dislike of foreigners (although before I came to visit her there, they treated her better because they thought she was Japanese or part Japanese because she speaks Japanese and is tiny and dark-haired and sort of has a Japanese facial look to her -- I don't -- I'm obviously a foreigner!).

I'm just really curious because people seem to be raving about Tokyo/Japan here, and I think the culture is much more complicated for non-Japanese people, especially in business. What is your take on that? Thanks.

[Wisteria]

Thanks, Citizen401 for the photos of Tokyo. I attached a few here that I took. The first two you'll easily recognize as Tokyo, and the last is in Fukuoka. (You have to click on them to make them larger and then click the "x" on the photo to stay in City-Data.)

The maids of Akihabara!


I didn't know which tower your second photo was from, so here is one at night of the new Sky Tree Tower in Tokyo:


And my favorite (although not Tokyo but I just loved it), the Giant Buddha in Fukuoka:

[Fitzrovian]

I will join the ravers. To me visiting Japan was like being on another, much more evolved, planet. The infrastructure, the technology, the level of cleanliness and hygiene, the food... but above all, the people and their unique and fascinating culture that has made all of this possible. What an amazing country.

I don't know what it's like living in Japan for a foreigner, but visiting -- especially for one who enjoys a dynamic urban environment - was an extraordinary experience.

[Wisteria]

Hi Fritzrovian,

From what I understand, it IS a different experience for tourists/short-term travelers. Being immersed day-to-day brings a lot of stuff that one would not normally be exposed to as a traveler. The people I knew who had been there several years and from another country (not just the U.S.) had quite different opinions.

I think Tokyo is good for tourists who want to experience something else -- but living there and not being Japanese is very different. Once you get outside of the Tokyo area, it does seem to become much more conservative and unwelcoming to foreigners.

I was just curious what the other poster had meant by working there, as I also keep up on Business in Japan and know about the difficulties of foreigners there and also Japanese who go abroad and "mingle" with foreigners (not popular amongst the majority). It's common knowledge that the Japanese and Chinese do not like each other (that's putting it mildly), and having been in both countries, I see why now. They are totally polar opposites. Ironically, China was quite open, vibrant, talkative and interactive -- Japan is not. (Ironically, it is China that is Communist, but Japan seemed very insular and much more conservative.)

This is not a debate about the merits of one over another and that would be for another thread (which would be interesting, but I'm not interested in starting). I was just curious about the business end of it because from what I have learned, and my daughter lived it, was that their business policies and constraints are quite tight. Some of her friends who had to take a job immediately upon graduation were not excited about it (they're expected to stay with the same company for about 30 years) -- but it's a reality there, and they had no choice. Like I said, I'm not here for that, I just was curious what the other poster meant by "western-style" companies.

There are tons of topics on this and I'm not here to debate them. I think if I hadn't been introduced to the more "inside" world of Japan, I could have enjoyed it much more as a tourist. And, if you know the language, it is interesting to "overhear" things. My daughter's a polyglot (4 languages, so far, including Spanish with the Japanese and Chinese - and, English, of course), so she can overhear what people are really saying....not always good, but certainly helpful.

So, yeah, if anyone is interested in Japan for touring, there's enough to keep you busy!

[OyCrumbler]

Originally Posted by Wisteria

Hi Fritzrovian,

From what I understand, it IS a different experience for tourists/short-term travelers. Being immersed day-to-day brings a lot of stuff that one would not normally be exposed to as a traveler. The people I knew who had been there several years and from another country (not just the U.S.) had quite different opinions.

I think Tokyo is good for tourists who want to experience something else -- but living there and not being Japanese is very different. Once you get outside of the Tokyo area, it does seem to become much more conservative and unwelcoming to foreigners.

I was just curious what the other poster had meant by working there, as I also keep up on Business in Japan and know about the difficulties of foreigners there and also Japanese who go abroad and "mingle" with foreigners (not popular amongst the majority). It's common knowledge that the Japanese and Chinese do not like each other (that's putting it mildly), and having been in both countries, I see why now. They are totally polar opposites. Ironically, China was quite open, vibrant, talkative and interactive -- Japan is not. (Ironically, it is China that is Communist, but Japan seemed very insular and much more conservative.)

This is not a debate about the merits of one over another and that would be for another thread (which would be interesting, but I'm not interested in starting). I was just curious about the business end of it because from what I have learned, and my daughter lived it, was that their business policies and constraints are quite tight. Some of her friends who had to take a job immediately upon graduation were not excited about it (they're expected to stay with the same company for about 30 years) -- but it's a reality there, and they had no choice. Like I said, I'm not here for that, I just was curious what the other poster meant by "western-style" companies.

There are tons of topics on this and I'm not here to debate them. I think if I hadn't been introduced to the more "inside" world of Japan, I could have enjoyed it much more as a tourist. And, if you know the language, it is interesting to "overhear" things. My daughter's a polyglot (4 languages, so far, including Spanish with the Japanese and Chinese - and, English, of course), so she can overhear what people are really saying....not always good, but certainly helpful.

So, yeah, if anyone is interested in Japan for touring, there's enough to keep you busy!

I see a lot of what you're saying. I had pretty similar experiences to your daughter a few years ago with long and short term stays in various parts of China, Japan, and Taiwan and I would say that Japan was generally the more reserved. However, I feel like there was a lot of regional variation with places like Beijing being quite aloof save for wanting you to buy things or voicing their displeasure or places like Osaka and Okinawa which I felt were both quite warm and friendly to others. There is a very strong salaryman business culture in Japan, but most non-Japanese end up staying out of that lifestyle. Meanwhile, there does seem to be a gradual shift out of that lifestyle though partially out of economic stagnation with the current business model which pushes people to find alternatives.

[Trimac20]

I dreamed I went to Japan last night. I went with my school and got lost, so I was wondering all over Tokyo trying to find them lol.

But yes, I think it'd be harder to break into Japan or have a life there as an ex-pat than the LDN or NY. They're just so international, the most international cities in the world.

[NycToTokyo]

Originally Posted by Wisteria

Which companies are "western-style?" And you stated "single guy," and Japan being paternalistic, what about "single woman?"

Japanese companies don't want foreigners, so are you referring to American companies with offices in Japan/Tokyo?

I can see where Tokyo is better than the rest of Japan -- it is more used to foreigners than most of the rest of the country.

I only ask because my daughter completed a year of study at Kyushu University (Fukuoka - in the south), and she speaks Japanese, but the outlook in Japan for women is not great, plus, for foreigners (at least at any Japanese company) is almost nil. Yes, Japanese is very difficult, and the various forms (i.e. Honorific) can be "horrific." But she's good with her Japanese, so that's not an issue (although I'd think for most people who have not mastered Japanese, it definitely could be a hurdle as not many Japanese actually speak English well if at all).

My kid's in Hong Kong now for the year, and although she speaks some Chinese (Mandarin) and uses Cantonese in Hong Kong, she's still talking about Japan again, although the culture shock in the south was pretty intense. There's an obvious dislike of foreigners (although before I came to visit her there, they treated her better because they thought she was Japanese or part Japanese because she speaks Japanese and is tiny and dark-haired and sort of has a Japanese facial look to her -- I don't -- I'm obviously a foreigner!).

I'm just really curious because people seem to be raving about Tokyo/Japan here, and I think the culture is much more complicated for non-Japanese people, especially in business. What is your take on that? Thanks.

When I say Western style I was pretty much referring to Western companies that have offices in Tokyo. If you are a Westerner I definitely feel that is the best entry as the traditional Japanese corporate life is not my cup of tea to put it mildly. That said not all Japanese companies are like that either.

As for women I honestly can't comment all that much being as I am a man but yes I would agree that it would be significantly more challenging to reach a mid-career type position as a single woman in Japan, at least via a Japanese company.

And yes the culture really is amazingly complicated though I find this extremely interesting. This is why I laugh when people give Tokyo or Japan negative marks for lack of "diversity" when I personally find their amazingly deep culture practices far more impressive and enlightening than the "diversity" that frankly I can experience in dozens if not hundreds of cities around the world. I find that this "diversity" often makes places feel more similar than unique. The mixing of many cultures often waters down each one individually to the point that they are kind of the same no matter where you go. And me yes there are obviously differences between a place like New York and London (which are both awesome places BTW) and if you have only been to those two cities I suppose the differences can seem quite big....until you move to a place like Japan and then you are like "Oh, now I get it" haha. Going back to either one of those two places after spending a significant amount of time in Japan makes you realize that they are very much just two sides of the same coin.

[Wisteria]

Thanks, NycToTokyo, for the clarification. I was wondering to what you were referring. Yes, it is difficult for a female in Japan.

My daughter is almost 23 and finishing up her Business Administration/International Business degree this year, and although she found Japan a bit stifling in ways (and certainly stereotypes were broken), she's now reconsidering -- but mainly Tokyo, as it is more tolerant there. She also tends to be a bit quiet, and her mannerisms are very Japanese (one reason I think they were confused about her), and I know that's one reason she feels comfortable there. So, I guess the best for her would to be in an American company with offices there.

I've been to all the four cities listed -- I just liked London more. Of course, I'm from the eastcoast and NYC was kind of my second home, so it's very familiar to me. I thought Tokyo was small compared to NYC -- just my impression. Of course, in parts it also could have been a page from a NYC magazine -- so similar in that way. And Shintoism....a government-created "religion." And I didn't like that you can't talk on buses (the bus driver makes an announcement in Japanese to NOT talk and to turn off all cell phones -- the quiet is eerie) and talking is frowned upon in restaurants. My kid was constantly elbowing me because I'd start speaking up "inappropriately," only I didn't know the cultural mores.

What I found so strange about Japan -- I know this may seem weird -- but it was the overabundance of SWEETS. I never saw so many sweets all over the place. I have a doctor friend there (who is Asian but NOT Japanese, so he is harassed a lot for that) who says that Anorexia and Bulimia are rampant. They want to stay thin but there is so much ice cream and candy and pop there, that they can't control themselves (not to mention the free beer and sake). I have to admit that I did like the vending machines -- especially in hot weather -- they are all over the place!

I also did not like the "suicide nets." I mean, what is the point of having a balcony if you have metal wiring all around it?? Personally, it's not the place for me, but my daughter has been obsessed with Japan and Asia, in general, since she was a kid, so it's not surprising to me that she wants to live there longer.

I was just trying to get an idea of what you meant. I know it's a challenge for women there, so I definitely think she needs an American company that will send her to Tokyo (where most of the major companies have their offices) once in awhile so she can have her fix.

As for the complexity of the language, my kid has this theory that the Japanese (because they hate the Chinese so much) made their language practically impossible to easily learn, so that most people wouldn't learn it (including the Chinese! lol). My daughter said she started "bowing" just while talking on the phone - ha ha.

For me, I'd choose China over Japan. But then again, I did have a Chinese (from Beijing) foreign exchange student for a year, and I adored Shanghai and loved Hong Kong. I've had lots of chances to readjust my stereotypes - lol. I think all people should be required to spend a lot of time abroad to appreciate all the differences. I love the cultural aspects, and I love getting right in with the people. Like many people, I have my favorites. The city I loved the most was Barcelona -- but that wasn't on the list... I left my heart in Spain. I am trying to drag my kid to there because she is fluent in Spanish having gone to high school in Chile (she does tend to get around for a young person). But her passion is Asia...

So thanks again for the clarification -- it's much appreciated!

[NycToTokyo]

Originally Posted by Wisteria

Thanks, NycToTokyo, for the clarification. I was wondering to what you were referring. Yes, it is difficult for a female in Japan.

My daughter is almost 23 and finishing up her Business Administration/International Business degree this year, and although she found Japan a bit stifling in ways (and certainly stereotypes were broken), she's now reconsidering -- but mainly Tokyo, as it is more tolerant there. She also tends to be a bit quiet, and her mannerisms are very Japanese (one reason I think they were confused about her), and I know that's one reason she feels comfortable there. So, I guess the best for her would to be in an American company with offices there.

I've been to all the four cities listed -- I just liked London more. Of course, I'm from the eastcoast and NYC was kind of my second home, so it's very familiar to me. I thought Tokyo was small compared to NYC -- just my impression. Of course, in parts it also could have been a page from a NYC magazine -- so similar in that way. And Shintoism....a government-created "religion." And I didn't like that you can't talk on buses (the bus driver makes an announcement in Japanese to NOT talk and to turn off all cell phones -- the quiet is eerie) and talking is frowned upon in restaurants. My kid was constantly elbowing me because I'd start speaking up "inappropriately," only I didn't know the cultural mores.

What I found so strange about Japan -- I know this may seem weird -- but it was the overabundance of SWEETS. I never saw so many sweets all over the place. I have a doctor friend there (who is Asian but NOT Japanese, so he is harassed a lot for that) who says that Anorexia and Bulimia are rampant. They want to stay thin but there is so much ice cream and candy and pop there, that they can't control themselves (not to mention the free beer and sake). I have to admit that I did like the vending machines -- especially in hot weather -- they are all over the place!

I also did not like the "suicide nets." I mean, what is the point of having a balcony if you have metal wiring all around it?? Personally, it's not the place for me, but my daughter has been obsessed with Japan and Asia, in general, since she was a kid, so it's not surprising to me that she wants to live there longer.

I was just trying to get an idea of what you meant. I know it's a challenge for women there, so I definitely think she needs an American company that will send her to Tokyo (where most of the major companies have their offices) once in awhile so she can have her fix.

As for the complexity of the language, my kid has this theory that the Japanese (because they hate the Chinese so much) made their language practically impossible to easily learn, so that most people wouldn't learn it (including the Chinese! lol). My daughter said she started "bowing" just while talking on the phone - ha ha.

For me, I'd choose China over Japan. But then again, I did have a Chinese (from Beijing) foreign exchange student for a year, and I adored Shanghai and loved Hong Kong. I've had lots of chances to readjust my stereotypes - lol. I think all people should be required to spend a lot of time abroad to appreciate all the differences. I love the cultural aspects, and I love getting right in with the people. Like many people, I have my favorites. The city I loved the most was Barcelona -- but that wasn't on the list... I left my heart in Spain. I am trying to drag my kid to there because she is fluent in Spanish having gone to high school in Chile (she does tend to get around for a young person). But her passion is Asia...

So thanks again for the clarification -- it's much appreciated!

A few of your statements are a little confusing to me.

1. You mentioned a few times about "tolerance" in Japan as if this is some sort of issue. There are a few quirks with being a foreigner but there are definitely no tolerance issues unless you have just led a completely sheltered life.

2. You thought Tokyo was small compared to New York? Now I question if you have even been to Tokyo as Tokyo is DRAMATICALLY larger than New York. I mean that is one of the most amazing and staggering things about Tokyo....is that absolutely no other place on earth that even comes to close. I honestly can't fathom how anyone who has been to both places could possibly think Tokyo was smaller.

3. The random comment on government created Shintoism. I don't get it. There is no active promotion of Shintoism by the government and in practical terms Japanese are probably some of the most "atheist" people there are.

4. Talking is frowned upon in restaurants? Again not to be rude but what in the absolute heck are you talking about lol? Maybe you meant to say "talking like a loud ass foreigner" is frowned upon and yeah that is true. And yeah talking on your phone on public transportation is frowned upon....and it is an awesome rule as far as I'm concerned.

5. Overabundance of sweets and a population that can't control themselves with it thus resorting to lots of cases of Bulimia. Japan has one of the lowest rates of sugar consumption among all industrialized nations. Americans eat a metric ton more sweets than Japanese do.

6. Free beer and sake? Clueless as to what you mean.

7. Suicide nets? Now I'm almost positive you are making things up.

[Wisteria]

A few of your statements are a little confusing to me.

1. You mentioned a few times about "tolerance" in Japan as if this is some sort of issue. There are a few quirks with being a foreigner but there are definitely no tolerance issues unless you have just led a completely sheltered life.

2. You thought Tokyo was small compared to New York? Now I question if you have even been to Tokyo as Tokyo is DRAMATICALLY larger than New York. I mean that is one of the most amazing and staggering things about Tokyo....is that absolutely no other place on earth that even comes to close. I honestly can't fathom how anyone who has been to both places could possibly think Tokyo was smaller.

3. The random comment on government created Shintoism. I don't get it. There is no active promotion of Shintoism by the government and in practical terms Japanese are probably some of the most "atheist" people there are.

4. Talking is frowned upon in restaurants? Again not to be rude but what in the absolute heck are you talking about lol? Maybe you meant to say "talking like a loud ass foreigner" is frowned upon and yeah that is true. And yeah talking on your phone on public transportation is frowned upon....and it is an awesome rule as far as I'm concerned.

5. Overabundance of sweets and a population that can't control themselves with it thus resorting to lots of cases of Bulimia. Japan has one of the lowest rates of sugar consumption among all industrialized nations. Americans eat a metric ton more sweets than Japanese do.

6. Free beer and sake? Clueless as to what you mean.

7. Suicide nets? Now I'm almost positive you are making things up.

I'm really surprised that you're surprised. I guess we had different experiences. Now, I'm not talking Tokyo, per se, but including other parts of the country. I honestly did not mean it to sound offensive, so I am surprised.

My experience (and my daughter's):

1. "Tolerance" -- well, most of her time was in the south in Fukuoka (although she routinely went to other cities, but she lived in Fukuoka). She was treated well (until I, the blonde, got there) and they thought she was Japanese (she is darker than me, dark hair, tiny, very demure, has many Japanese mannerisms, and speaks Japanese). With me with her, then the whole foreigner thing came up and even the taxi driver who was supposed to drop us off at our hotel in Kyoto, literally, took our baggage out of the trunk -- a block from the hotel, not near it -- and hurled our luggage into the middle of the street in the dark! And then he just sped off! I kid you not. That was a shock. He had already been paid, I had learned by then to not talk in various places, and we were quite polite to him. That's just one blatant example. In Tokyo we were treated better but I think it is because they are more used to foreigners there because of the business people. People from here who go there for business love Tokyo. As for me, I have NOT lived a sheltered life. And I have never gone on a "tour" to any place, and I've been to over 15 countries, and either stayed with people I knew there, or just immersed myself.

2. I think Tokyo may be larger in land mass -- I meant the crowds. [Tokyo is 2,187.08 km and New York City is 468.9 sq mi (1,214.4 km2)].

We were there for a week and did not run into the crowds like in Manhattan. Yes, we took the subways a lot, and walked a lot. I always like NYC because of the crowds -- it's fun. I did not see those kinds of crowds in Tokyo. That was my perception. This just didn't seem "crowded" to me. Kyoto was very crowded in the tourist areas -- that was shoulder to shoulder. But downtown Tokyo didn't seem overwhelming at all.

3. Sorry, the Shintoism was just an aside -- probably I shouldn't have mentioned it. I know they do not actually practice it, but there are many shrines around -- that's all. Nothing to do with business.

4. No, I wasn't a loud brass American....and my daughter is very demure and quiet. Any conversation in which we were animated was, to her, an "offense." You don't know me, nor do you know her -- she is extremely sensitive to the culture there, and I was only pointing out that most people are very quiet -- again, mostly in other cities, not Tokyo (although they still seemed fairly reserved). I should probably have just stayed explicitly with Tokyo, however, the other parts of the country were interesting, too. And on the buses, which we used a lot, they do make an announcement to not talk at all -- not just on cell phones. Now, I would not have known that because I am not fluent in Japanese -- she had to interpret for me. I was surprised -- the buses were silent.

5. I know many people think the Japanese have this great diet, and it's just not true. Yes, anorexia and bulima are on the rise. I didn't believe it either, but I was clearly informed that this is taking place. Maybe it is not publicized so much, but it is. It doesn't matter if you believe me or not....it is what I learned from a doctor who treated these (women and men) for this. My kid even got into the sweet thing while there. It was common for people to carry candy in their pockets to offer it to others. One of her professors had so much candy in her office that she was shocked. She said candy was falling off the shelves, candy bars piled high on the desk, all over the place. When I went shopping in the grocery stores, the sweets sections were enormous. And ice cream all over the place -- I don't eat ice cream, myself, and thought they didn't either, so I was surprised to see so much ice cream. Her favorite food was the "Japanese meatloaf." And at the onsens I DID see fat and very chubby Japanese (when you're all naked, it's hard to hide!) -- it was not that uncommon. And maybe you are unaware of one of the things that they do: purchase pills that actually have tapeworms in them to keep their weight down -- my daughter was appalled at how many "stick legs" there were (and she's only 100 lbs. - but short).
I have LOADS of photos of sweets' places and all kinds of non-stereotypical photos. One here is just one aisle of a grocery store. The rest are self-explanatory. I'm not posting all of them here because it would take up all my space.

6. Free beer and sake in the some of the restaurants. Yes. They even started that over here in San Francisco -- a hotel/bar based on the Japanese where they, too, serve free beer and sake. My kid is not a drinker and she said it was quite common for most of the people her age to go and indulge in these places. Mums SF - Home of the Shabu-shabu Restaurant and Bar . I am in my sixties, (and, thus, part of the Sixties generation) so I didn't go bar-hopping, I only took it from the younger ones that it happens (I am also tiny, so I just looked like a sweet little old lady - not threatening or loud....). When I took a Japanese class with my daughter (when she was in high school and we went to a community college at night to take it), the teacher who was Japanese said that she liked that they would deliver cases of beer to your house -- sort of an alcohol-type pizza delivery - lol. The vending machines also carry alcohol....

7. Suicide nets. Yes. As you seem to know a lot about Japan, surely you are aware of the suicides. (It's possible that when people see them they don't know that's what they're for...) And I'm surprised you never ran into places with the nets/metal. Of course, rarely are the suicides even spoken of. My daughter learned of a Chemistry teacher at her university who committed suicide (where there were no nets) by jumping out of a window because he thought someone had stolen a chemical that was dangerous. (Unfortunately, it was found later, and it had NOT been stolen.) When he killed himself it was not even talked about (she found out from a researcher there about it), and in the class he taught, they just brought in a new teacher, nothing was said, and that was that. (It's the "honorable" way to go.)
This was the net at her dorm room -- a very big university and everyone knew that's what they were for -- it was not a secret.

I guess we can agree to disagree. I know that my daughter totally immerses herself in the culture in which she lives at the time. She was not some international student who hung around with other international students - she is atypical for her age group and generally hangs out with older people (15 years+ -- and she does not drink, smoke or do drugs -- she is odd for her age). She is very independent and loves different cultures. She frequently joins Meet-ups with the locals, goes out on her own, or with people from the country she's in. She is also fluent in the language of the country she is in -- she is a true polyglot and easily picks up other languages. She does not like hanging out with those who just want to speak English, or are from the U.S. or Europe. I trust her, and I, knowing people there (both Japan and China), feel confident that this is all true (not to mention that as "sheltered" as I may appear to you, I am not, and I when I am in a different country, I purposely go outside-the-box to get the full experience).

Obviously, we see things differently. The people I know who have lived there (or currently live there) and were part of the culture and know the language fluently do agree with me -- that I found interesting. We have discussed these points above at length.

I put in my two cents, which I see is not worth much (just 2 pennies). Anyway, it's another perspective if anyone cares to see it. I didn't mean this to be a debate, so I will just quietly go away. I was only interested in the business perspective, but I think I already have a handle on that, so my questions were answered. Thanks everyone.