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Old 07-26-2022, 09:53 PM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trojan1982 View Post
You are speaking a whole lot of bull****. Nigeria presently and Jamaica historically have been among the largest source of Immigrants to Canada.
Canada is only 3.5% black.

They are very careful about who they allow into their country.
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Old 07-26-2022, 11:18 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bakery Hill View Post
In the 2021 census roughly 1.1 million Australians identified as having Italian ancestry, which is about 4.4% of the total population of 25 million. In the 2019 American Community Survey 16.1 million Americans reported Italian ancestry. That’s about 4.9% of the US population of 328 million, which is very similar to Australia.

As for cultural influence, that’s more subjective. Even in regional Australia pretty much all supermarkets have large pasta and olive oil sections and sell Italian style bread, most pubs have “chicken parma” or other Italian inspired dish(s) on their menu, and upmarket Italian restaurants are pretty common. Similarly the coffee culture of Australia is pretty strong, and grew out the Italian influence. Those things are just so common that most people don’t see them as “Italian” in origin.

Travelling in New Zealand for example, which has had pretty much no large scale Italian migration, you don’t find much of those influences at all, apart from the somewhat similar cafe coffee culture.
That 16.1 million number is a bit of an undercount, considering the higher trending numbers in previous decades - a number of European ethnicities are now seeing drops in their numbers because of increased ethnic diffusion. 16.1 million was the estimated Italian American population in 2010. It was 17.8 million in 2017. It should be just about 18-19 million in 2020, according to conclusions drawn from the earlier studies of Richard Morrill. There were estimates of 20 million Americans of Italian descent in 2001 (https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/...onres141ih.htm) and 20 to 23 million Americans of Italian descent (focusing on Sicilian ancestry) in 1972 (https://www.nytimes.com/1972/04/30/a...y-million.html). But 16.1 million is 5% of the American population, of 332 million. That’s a more notable American Italian population no matter how you slice it. You’re trying to manipulate the data to understate it.

You can’t say the Italian Australian community is equivalent to the American Italian one. The latter is a lot more numerous, older, and a lot more culturally visible. A number of cities and states have Italian American majorities and pluralities, respectively, as well as a more crucial “French-Italian” ethnic genetic element that I don’t think anywhere in Australia has (https://www.newgeography.com/content...composition-us). I’m talking about the ways in which Italian culture has, and Italian Americans have impacted the idea of American culture. Australia remains resolutely British in culture.


Last edited by charget; 07-26-2022 at 11:48 PM..
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Old 07-27-2022, 12:11 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charget View Post
That 16.1 million number is a bit of an undercount, considering the higher trending numbers in previous decades - a number of European ethnicities are now seeing drops in their numbers because of increased ethnic diffusion. 16.1 million was the estimated Italian American population in 2010. It was 17.8 million in 2017. It should be just about 18-19 million in 2020, according to conclusions drawn from the earlier studies of Richard Morrill. There were estimates of 20 million Americans of Italian descent in 2001 (https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/...onres141ih.htm) and 20 to 23 million Americans of Italian descent (focusing on Sicilian ancestry) in 1972 (https://www.nytimes.com/1972/04/30/a...y-million.html). But 16.1 million is 5% of the American population, of 332 million. That’s a more notable American Italian population no matter how you slice it. You’re trying to manipulate the data to understate it.

You can’t say the Italian Australian community is equivalent to the American Italian one. The latter is a lot more numerous, older, and a lot more culturally visible. A number of cities and states have Italian American majorities and pluralities, respectively, as well as a more crucial “French-Italian” ethnic genetic element that I don’t think anywhere in Australia has (https://www.newgeography.com/content...composition-us). I’m talking about the ways in which Italian culture has impacted mainstream America. Australia remains resolutely British in culture.
But it is the response to the American Cultural Survey as conducted by the United States Census Bureau, whether you like the numbers or not. The figures for Australia are most likely an understatement a well, as ethnicity is defined in terms of culturally influenced by ancestry rather than direct ancestry only, so people are not likely to identify as Italian or any other ethnicity unless they feel they have been influenced by that ethnicity. A lot of folk with Italian grandparents or great grandparents would will simply identify as "Australian," or a different more recent ancestry.

Its interesting that 80% of Italian migrants to Australia were from northern Italy (including Tuscany), which seems very different than the US experience. Northern Italian culture is quite distinct from Sicilian or Calabrian.

Aside from the sheer number of negative stereotypical mafia movies and TV series that Hollywood produces, how is the US Italian population more visible?

As for Australia being "resolutely British" in culture, have you ever even been to Australia, or do you simply not consider a very large proportion of Australians to be "Australian."

Last edited by Bakery Hill; 07-27-2022 at 12:29 AM..
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Old 07-27-2022, 01:02 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bakery Hill View Post
But it is the response to the American Cultural Survey as conducted by the United States Census Bureau, whether you like the numbers or not.

The figures for Australia are most likely an understatement a well, as ethnicity is defined in terms of culturally influenced by ancestry rather than direct ancestry only, so people are not likely to identify as Italian or any other ethnicity unless they feel they have been influenced by that ethnicity. A lot of folk with Italian grandparents or great grandparents would will simply identify as "Australian," or a different more recent ancestry.

Its interesting that 80% of Italian migrants to Australia were from northern Italy (including Tuscany), which seems very different than the US experience. Northern Italian culture is quite distinct from Sicilian or Calabrian.

Aside from the sheer number of negative stereotypical mafia movies and TV series that Hollywood produces, how is the US Italian population more visible?

As for Australia being "resolutely British" in culture, have you ever even been to Australia, or do you simply not consider a very large proportion of Australians to be "Australian."
The responses given to the ACS vary drastically, and much older surveys of the Italian American population have arrived at much higher numbers, whether you like the numbers or not. The upper estimates for the American Italian population, going back to the 70s, top out at somewhere in the 20 million range - that is, regardless, much larger than the Italian Australian population, who’s estimates top out in the 1.0 million range.

You literally understated the total American population and lied about the ratio of the American population that 16.1 million represents, all just to manipulate the Italian American community downward. You went with the lowest current estimate you could find.

I also would doubt that the Italian Australian community is undercounted relative to the Italian American one, given it’s comparative newness and position in a smaller, more homogeneous overall population, in a more geographically confined area.

And there’s a lot more than “negative stereotypical mafia movies” that evidence Italian American culture, what a jealous, desperate claim. The Italian American impact is felt heavily in food, music, film, subculture, fashion, accent, and animation. Everything from Rock and roll and Jazz, the Greaser subculture, to Disney animated films, to popular Hollywood directors, actors, and archetypes, to popular dance styles, all of them have some degree of influence from the Italian American community.
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Old 07-27-2022, 01:13 AM
 
1,458 posts, read 1,309,230 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charget View Post
The responses given to the ACS vary drastically, and much older surveys of the Italian American population have arrived at much higher numbers, whether you like the numbers or not. The upper estimates for the American Italian population, going back to the 70s, top out at somewhere in the 20 million range - that is, regardless, much larger than the Italian Australian population, who’s estimates top out in the 1.0 million range.

You literally understated the total American population and lied about the ratio of the American population that 16.1 million represents, all just to manipulate the Italian American community downward. You went with the lowest current estimate you could find.

I also would doubt that the Italian Australian community is undercounted relative to the Italian American one, given it’s comparative newness and position in a smaller, more homogeneous overall population, in a more geographically confined area.

And there’s a lot more than “negative stereotypical mafia movies” that evidence Italian American culture, what a jealous, desperate claim. The Italian American impact is felt heavily in food, music, film, subculture, fashion, accent, and animation. Everything from Rock and roll and Jazz, the Greaser subculture, to Disney animated films, to popular Hollywood directors, actors, and archetypes, to popular dance styles, all of them have some degree of influence from the Italian American community.
No, I went with the most recent authoritative data I could find for both countries.

Regarding the Australian total, that's your "doubt" only.

What makes you think there haven't been influential Italian Australians?
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Old 07-27-2022, 01:40 AM
 
2,970 posts, read 1,939,333 times
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It seems African countries are the most ethnically diverse in the world:
https://worldpopulationreview.com/co...erse-countries

As for the 3 countries states in this topic's heading, it seems Canada is the most diverse?

Ethnic Fractionalization
Canada : 71%
United States : 49%
Australia : 9.3%
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Old 07-27-2022, 02:17 AM
 
Location: Australia
3,602 posts, read 2,256,620 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bakery Hill View Post
No, I went with the most recent authoritative data I could find for both countries.

Regarding the Australian total, that's your "doubt" only.

What makes you think there haven't been influential Italian Australians?
Note that our current Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese, had an Italian father though had no contact with him when growing up.
Our census asks people to nominate their heritage and we can nominate more than one. My daughters are half Italian and I asked one of them today what she nominated. Australian she said. Many people of Italian heritage do not nominate that they are.
Be interested to know the specific traits that make Australian culture supposedly dominately British?
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Old 07-27-2022, 02:22 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1098 View Post
It would be interesting to compare the three at similar periods in their history. Free immigration to Australia really only began on the 1830s; the U.S. was a large and mature nation by that time. Today Australia still is very much a nation of immigrants and children of immigrants; while the U.S. isn't much different to the "old world" nations of Europe.

U.S. was only 54 years old in 1830, and just under 13 million pop.



Australia was a British colony and now a constitutional monarchy. The first white immigrants were British convicts who were dumped there (1788-1810) and left to their own devices to build their own society.
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Old 07-27-2022, 02:34 AM
 
5,457 posts, read 3,311,903 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
Canada is only 3.5% black.

They are very careful about who they allow into their country.

Canada does not discriminate against black immigrants nor did we bring in slaves from Africa. Slavery was outlawed in Britain in 1836 and therefore against the law in their colonies. The main terminus of the underground railroad was in Ontario, Canada where we offered sanctuary to escaping slaves.
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Old 07-27-2022, 02:55 AM
 
Location: Brisbane
5,020 posts, read 7,408,111 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kitty61 View Post
U.S. was only 54 years old in 1830, and just under 13 million pop.



Australia was a British colony and now a constitutional monarchy. The first white immigrants were British convicts who were dumped there (1788-1810) and left to their own devices to build their own society.
If you want to be technical about it neither Australia nor Canada Existed in 1830, and neither did the majority of the countries in modern day Europe.

I think what he meant was their had been European Settlement in the USA for a long time before Australia.

Of course in 1830 the USA was only 24 states, there were more than 13 million non native Americans people in what is now the 50 states, the other 26 were simply were not part of the union. Coincidentally the 1830 census of engalnd returned a population of just below 13 million.

Last edited by danielsa1775; 07-27-2022 at 03:47 AM..
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