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Old 07-28-2022, 03:28 PM
 
Location: In the heights
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pryvete View Post
Several important factors to account for here. One, the Germans, Italians, and Eastern Europeans were limited in their ability to travel to the United States by way of seafaring across the Atlantic. Hispanic migrants are able to traverse several countries and physically enter the United States by a twofold continental collective of nations with untold waves of more expressing interest in relocating here.

Second, the European immigrants coming here didn't have a continuous link to their home nations. The closest equivalent would be a cultural microcosm like Little Italy or some small town in the Midwest. Hispanics have a continuous inundation thanks to geographical proximity and accommodations made for them in their language out in public.

It's an apples to oranges type of comparison.
A few things.

I mentioned the immigration population as a proportion of the total, so that needs to factor that the base population was also much smaller and there was for a very long time quite limited immigration controls.

The European migrants did have fairly continuous links especially in the latter part of the 19th century where it was common to go back and forth. After all, there's a reason why Irish independence, Italian reunification and Polish independence movements had drawn such a massive amount of funding and moneys from the US population. There also wasn't the lev of standardized education systems and mass media conducted in the English language existing back then. Remember, up until WWI and even throughout WWII, quite a few Midwestern cities had massive German blocs where they spoke almost exclusively the German language and had very vibrant newspapers and community theaters. This was also the case for even small languages like Finnish, Swedish, Lithuanian, and even Icelandic. Little Italy in living memory is a pretty faint palimpsest of just how Italian the Italian communities in the US were like in the wake of WWII as well.

There are certainly differences, but it's important to understand that you're painting an inaccurate depiction of how US immigration history works though you do have a mostly accurate depiction of current Hispanic immigration. And there are notably similar bits where when people inveigle against immigration now compared to that of yesteryear that do have some resemblance. After all, apples and oranges are both fruits. A lot of the European immigration was very visibly and identifiably foreign to the then native sons, and people were pissed. Most of the waves of the immigration were also quite poor, rural, and uneducated in comparison. There were only a very small number of groups that came in that were not such during those times. Those would be the small number of people that weren't that such as secondary immigration from French Huguenots or skilled urban residents of the failed idealistic German revolutions of 1848 and 1860, but by and large, the immigration from Europe was and characterized in the then contemporary media as un-American, foreign, dirty, poor, and uneducated--and unassimilable which turned out to be more true back in those days prior to mass media and standardized education as those communities ended up fairly insular for a very long time. You still have "Pennsylvania Dutch" though at least these days it's common for them to be able to manage some English which is very much a 20th century turn of events.
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Old 07-28-2022, 06:31 PM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
This is foolishness. The poor, uneducated and bizarre compared to mainstream America has been an ongoing thing for a while. The Germans were another breed. The Irish were, too, so poor, dirty and impoverished and speaking gibberish. The Eastern Europeans were awful. The Italians were horrendous. This has been going on for a while now and these were waves where there was truly a different level of poverty, hygiene, education, etc. and in as high or higher proportions to the population than what we have now.
I am concerned that the Hispanic immigrants who are flooding into the United States will not assimilate into American society unless any further immigration is drastically reduced.

They may become a permanent underclass. That is not without precedent in this country.
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Old 07-28-2022, 08:06 PM
 
Location: Brisbane
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
I am concerned that the Hispanic immigrants who are flooding into the United States will not assimilate into American society unless any further immigration is drastically reduced.

They may become a permanent underclass. That is not without precedent in this country.
That's a good point, have the US ever through of creating a Spanish speaking state, Sort of like Quebec in Canada? It might work.

Outside of the UK, Australia has never had a contusions wave of immigrants from a single language block like the US, the second language in Australia keeps changing all the time depending on where the latest wave of immigrants are coming from, it has changed 4 times in the last 50 years, and will continue to do so.

28% of of Australians Speak a language other than English at home, however the current second Language (Mandarin) is spoken by just 2.7% of people. The fact that this % is so small, combined with the fact that the second language keeps changing, could make it much harder for a single language group to form a massive block and not assimilate into the general society.

Of course if immigrants are able to assimilate more within a Society, it can often negatively affect the perceived Diversity of a country. Not to say Australia is some kind of peaceful utopia or anything, its possibly not just as divided as the US

Last edited by danielsa1775; 07-28-2022 at 08:22 PM..
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Old 07-28-2022, 11:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MarisaMay View Post
It seems you are coming from the point of view that the more diversity the better. That is entirely your right though not an opinion universally accepted. Especially by countries such as Japan.

However, surely in all the countries being discussed, the only non immigrants were the Indigenous populations. Obviously we had our convicts and the US had slaves but they all came from a different place.

Australia did indeed for a long time draw most of its immigration from the British Isles, but not necessarily the UK. Around 25-30% of the population were Irish and the Irish Catholics had their own culture right up to late last century.

The Italian migration pattern was a slow increase until after WW2. In 1939 there were 38,000 Italian born residents. In 1961 it was around 230,000 and by 1971 660,000.

The importance of the Italian migration was very high as it was the first big migration from a country that was not predominantly English speaking. It broke down the Irish nature of the Catholic Church and of the Catholic school system. Italians were subjected to all sorts of racism in those days but gradually people embraced Italian food (I remember as a child my uncle trying to describe what a pizza was) and other aspects of their culture.

So the last wedding we attended of an Italian descent cousin had three ceremonies. A Buddhist, a Chinese and a Mass. The bride being Cambodian but with an ethnic Chinese parent. The reception was at a typical Australian venue overlooking Sydney harbour.

That is quite typical here and I am sure also in the US and Canada.

The focus here, and from what I read also in Canada, is more addressing the issues arising from the historical treatment of the Indigenous population.
But that wasn’t the focus of this thread.

It also sounds like, from your recounting of data, Australia is a lot less culturally, historically, and ethnically “Italian” than the US? If the Italian population was 660,000 in Australia in 1971, vs upper estimates of 20 million+ for the US during the same time period?
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Old 07-28-2022, 11:44 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bakery Hill View Post
A fair proportion of those are pretty much unknown outside of North America though.

Daniel Ricciardo would have name recognition in any country that follows Formula 1. Tina Arena is probably now more popular in France than Australia where her career peaked in the 1990s. Anthony LaPaglia has acted in more US TV series and movies (e.g. Cold Case, Frasier, Betsy's Wedding) than Australian. Natalie Imgruglia would be reasonably well known in any country that aired Australian soap operas.

And Anthony Albanese, Australia's current Prime Minister, should be known to his Canadian and US counterparts, but apparently is not.....

As for more local influence, people like Carla Zampatti (fashion), Anthony (Nick) Scali (mid market furniture), Paul Bongiorno (political commentator) have been pretty influential in their fields.
“More local influence” is you trying to scrounge up a competition here where there isn’t one.

No one said you couldn’t cherry pick notable Italian Australians - but that their relative impact on Australian culture, their historical prominence, their visibility, and their statistical prevalence doesn’t match the Italian impact in the US, and it’s not even a debate. It’s factual.

Wikipedia lists 3,000+ Americans of Italian descent, it lists 500+ Australians of Italian descent. I think the likes of Scorsese, Cuomo, Germanotta (Gaga), Madonna, Valli, De Niro, Pacino, Giuliani, Pelosi, and more are a lot more well known than the likes of Natalie Imbruglia or your prime minister.

There are thousands upon thousands of notable Italian Americans in almost every field, from “Mid-market furniture” to politics to fashion to entertainment. I’m thinking a list of Italian Australians per industry wouldn’t be anywhere near as prolific as any American equivalent.
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Old 07-29-2022, 12:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarisaMay View Post
Then there are the builders, Abigano who founded the Abi group, the Grollo family among many.
I live in the Sutherland Shire, which tends to be derided not only as the home of Scomo, but as being probably the least diverse area of Sydney. Mark Vincent, the singer came from here and is Italian background, as is our current mayor, Carmelo Pesce.
Okay, saying there are some notable Italian Australians doesn’t make the Italian Australian community as significant to Australia, or as overall prominent, as the Italian American, because it just isn’t, statistically
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Old 07-29-2022, 02:52 AM
 
Location: Brisbane
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clickit View Post
“More local influence” is you trying to scrounge up a competition here where there isn’t one.

No one said you couldn’t cherry pick notable Italian Australians - but that their relative impact on Australian culture, their historical prominence, their visibility, and their statistical prevalence doesn’t match the Italian impact in the US, and it’s not even a debate. It’s factual.

Wikipedia lists 3,000+ Americans of Italian descent, it lists 500+ Australians of Italian descent. I think the likes of Scorsese, Cuomo, Germanotta (Gaga), Madonna, Valli, De Niro, Pacino, Giuliani, Pelosi, and more are a lot more well known than the likes of Natalie Imbruglia or your prime minister.

There are thousands upon thousands of notable Italian Americans in almost every field, from “Mid-market furniture” to politics to fashion to entertainment. I’m thinking a list of Italian Australians per industry wouldn’t be anywhere near as prolific as any American equivalent.
Of course they are - they are American - the spread and mass adoption of American pop culture makes Americans Famous in other countries.
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Old 07-29-2022, 07:15 AM
 
Location: Toronto
15,109 posts, read 15,709,886 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danielsa1775 View Post
Of course they are - they are American - the spread and mass adoption of American pop culture makes Americans Famous in other countries.
100 percent. In the last 75 years or so due to this, there are probably more famous American Italians than out of Italy itself during that period. Also, the U.S is 9X more populated than Canada and 13X more than Australia. Given these factors is it all all shocking there are more and more famous Italian Americans than either of ours
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Old 07-29-2022, 07:30 AM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
27,230 posts, read 28,302,028 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
100 percent. In the last 75 years or so due to this, there are probably more famous American Italians than out of Italy itself during that period. Also, the U.S is 9X more populated than Canada and 13X more than Australia. Given these factors is it all all shocking there are more and more famous Italian Americans than either of ours
How much did the Italian mafia affect Canada or Australia?

That was a big thing in United States for a long time, and there are traces left of it even today.
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Old 07-29-2022, 07:59 AM
 
Location: Brisbane
5,021 posts, read 7,427,982 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
How much did the Italian mafia affect Canada or Australia?

That was a big thing in United States for a long time, and there are traces left of it even today.
The Italian Mafia is certainly very active in organised crime in Australia, and been for quite a whileThe federal Police came out with this just last month.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XKafiwmBtgU

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dai...rug-trade.html
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