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Old 07-29-2022, 09:01 AM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
27,214 posts, read 28,295,642 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
I'm currently in the Toronto burbs, but when possible, we are several hours north of here in the country at a lake house. The nearest town with a supermarket, 15 miles away, has a population of less than 4,000.

They sell halal meat at the grocery store. The best diner in town is owned by a man from China. There are black people in town, not a lot of them, but they are present. The first time I drove up there, I stopped in the town at a convenience store, where the Sikh owner was behind the counter. Coming from New Jersey, I felt very much at home when I saw him.
I am aware that the Toronto area is pretty diverse. In the United States, all of the large metro areas with 4 million+ residents are diverse as well. Waves of immigrants came to the United States and mainly settled in the urban areas. As they did so, the people who were there before them moved away from those areas. This pattern has held true since the 19th century.

Most of small town and rural America, especially in the northern half of the country, is 95-99% white. You can travel for hundreds of miles in those places and hardly ever see a non-white person living there.
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Old 07-29-2022, 10:44 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
26,756 posts, read 37,644,012 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
How much did the Italian mafia affect Canada or Australia?

That was a big thing in United States for a long time, and there are traces left of it even today.
The Italian mafia is or was big in Montreal and Toronto. And to some degree in cities like Ottawa and Hamilton too.

A lot of the families were affiliated with those of the NE US.

Apparently the Rizzuto family in Montreal was associated with the Bonnano family in New York.
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Old 07-29-2022, 10:59 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
26,756 posts, read 37,644,012 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danielsa1775 View Post
Of course they are - they are American - the spread and mass adoption of American pop culture makes Americans Famous in other countries.
That's part of it but it's not just that.

Italians play a more visible role in classic Americana than they do in the iconography of the US and Canada. They're almost like the "classic ethnics" or the "classic immigrant story".

It goes way back, all the way to the Rudolph Valentino era and maybe even before.

You don't have that nearly as much in Canada or, dare I say, in Australia.

It's hard to define groups like that for all of Canada though obviously Ukrainians are a big one on the Prairies and the "iconic" status of the group does rub off to some degree across the country.

You also have Germans in SW Ontario.

I think Germans might play that role in Australia to some degree.
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Old 07-29-2022, 11:11 AM
 
1,325 posts, read 455,989 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
A few things.

I mentioned the immigration population as a proportion of the total, so that needs to factor that the base population was also much smaller and there was for a very long time quite limited immigration controls.

The European migrants did have fairly continuous links especially in the latter part of the 19th century where it was common to go back and forth. After all, there's a reason why Irish independence, Italian reunification and Polish independence movements had drawn such a massive amount of funding and moneys from the US population. There also wasn't the lev of standardized education systems and mass media conducted in the English language existing back then. Remember, up until WWI and even throughout WWII, quite a few Midwestern cities had massive German blocs where they spoke almost exclusively the German language and had very vibrant newspapers and community theaters. This was also the case for even small languages like Finnish, Swedish, Lithuanian, and even Icelandic. Little Italy in living memory is a pretty faint palimpsest of just how Italian the Italian communities in the US were like in the wake of WWII as well.

There are certainly differences, but it's important to understand that you're painting an inaccurate depiction of how US immigration history works though you do have a mostly accurate depiction of current Hispanic immigration. And there are notably similar bits where when people inveigle against immigration now compared to that of yesteryear that do have some resemblance. After all, apples and oranges are both fruits. A lot of the European immigration was very visibly and identifiably foreign to the then native sons, and people were pissed. Most of the waves of the immigration were also quite poor, rural, and uneducated in comparison. There were only a very small number of groups that came in that were not such during those times. Those would be the small number of people that weren't that such as secondary immigration from French Huguenots or skilled urban residents of the failed idealistic German revolutions of 1848 and 1860, but by and large, the immigration from Europe was and characterized in the then contemporary media as un-American, foreign, dirty, poor, and uneducated--and unassimilable which turned out to be more true back in those days prior to mass media and standardized education as those communities ended up fairly insular for a very long time. You still have "Pennsylvania Dutch" though at least these days it's common for them to be able to manage some English which is very much a 20th century turn of events.
Italian and Polish immigrants jointly amounted to 6 million people roughly between the 19th and early 20th centuries leading up to WW1. True you did have a number of 'birds of passage' who returned to their home countries but the scope and imposition of their influence in America was never so pronounced. They typically formed ethno-cultural enclaves within districts of major cities or in small towns in places such as the upper midwest. Concerning Hispanics you have a broader pan-culturalist application to most regions of the country.

However much immigration there was in the 19th and 20th centuries from downtrodden individuals it doesn't detract from the fact that they had to seek more complex means of transportational accommodations. Moreover you had an emigrational influx into the United States that was comparatively more limited in its scope than what we're seeing today; 65 million Hispanics residing in the USA with who knows how many tens of millions of illegal aliens residing here (the bulk of which coming from south of the border) and another 42 million expressing interest to migrate here from Latin America or the Caribbean according to a recent Gallup poll. Per capita that's nearly 1 in 3 people living in the USA versus less than 1 in 10 back in the 1800s/early 1990s.

Last edited by Pryvete; 07-29-2022 at 12:22 PM..
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Old 07-29-2022, 11:17 AM
 
Location: Canada
14,633 posts, read 14,720,940 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clickit View Post
....... I’m thinking a list of Italian Australians per industry wouldn’t be anywhere near as prolific as any American equivalent.
Perhaps if Australia's population was 12 times more than what it is so that Australia and America were on an equal footing population-wise, then such a list might also be more equal between the two countries.

But I guess that's a moot point.

.
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Old 07-29-2022, 09:39 PM
 
Location: Brisbane
5,021 posts, read 7,426,595 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoisite View Post
Perhaps if Australia's population was 12 times more than what it is so that Australia and America were on an equal footing population-wise, then such a list might also be more equal between the two countries.

But I guess that's a moot point.

.
I think its closer to 13 times actually.

On the subject of population if you compare the 2021 and 2001 census of Australia and England and Wales, Austrlia actually gained almost 1 million more people.

England and Wales went from 52,041,916 to 57,599,300 an increase of 5,557,384

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...%20and%20Wales.

https://ghdx.healthdata.org/record/u...C990%20females.

Over the same period Australia went from 18,769,249 to 25,422,788 or plus 6,653,639

https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/pe...%20years%20old.

https://www.abs.gov.au/census/find-c...e%20population.

Which shows just how much recent immigration has changed the country, Canada did add just over 300,000 more people than Australia over the same period through.

Last edited by danielsa1775; 07-29-2022 at 09:57 PM..
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Old 07-29-2022, 11:32 PM
 
Location: Elsewhere
87,949 posts, read 83,773,798 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
I am aware that the Toronto area is pretty diverse. In the United States, all of the large metro areas with 4 million+ residents are diverse as well. Waves of immigrants came to the United States and mainly settled in the urban areas. As they did so, the people who were there before them moved away from those areas. This pattern has held true since the 19th century.

Most of small town and rural America, especially in the northern half of the country, is 95-99% white. You can travel for hundreds of miles in those places and hardly ever see a non-white person living there.
I'm aware. Even in New Jersey, the most densely populated state, we have such areas. I think you missed the point I was making that the place I was describing is not the Toronto area, but a rural area about 3.5 hours drive from the GTA where you hear wolves howling at night in winter, and still there is some diversity. Less than the GTA, but still more than the rural areas you describe in the States.

However, that is Ontario. It may be different in other provinces.
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Old 07-30-2022, 03:00 AM
 
1,458 posts, read 1,315,686 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
That's part of it but it's not just that.

Italians play a more visible role in classic Americana than they do in the iconography of the US and Canada. They're almost like the "classic ethnics" or the "classic immigrant story".

It goes way back, all the way to the Rudolph Valentino era and maybe even before.

You don't have that nearly as much in Canada or, dare I say, in Australia.

It's hard to define groups like that for all of Canada though obviously Ukrainians are a big one on the Prairies and the "iconic" status of the group does rub off to some degree across the country.

You also have Germans in SW Ontario.

I think Germans might play that role in Australia to some degree.
Italian migration to Australia was largely from the industrialised north, so they were a very different demographic than the more heavily Sicilian and Calabrians group who migrated to the U.S.

I don't think there is an "iconic" immigrant group in Australia, perhaps because foreign born people have always been such a large proportion of the population. Most of the country is an immigrant, the child of an immigrant or the grand child of an immigrant, so what's "special?"

Sure some groups became a pretty visible part of mainstream culture, particularly food: Chinese, Italian, Lebanese, Vietnamese, German (Octoberfest), Indians are a few. Others seem close to invisible: the Dutch, Poles, Finns and others.
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Old 07-30-2022, 06:50 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
26,756 posts, read 37,644,012 times
Reputation: 11522
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bakery Hill View Post
Italian migration to Australia was largely from the industrialised north, so they were a very different demographic than the more heavily Sicilian and Calabrians group who migrated to the U.S.

I don't think there is an "iconic" immigrant group in Australia, perhaps because foreign born people have always been such a large proportion of the population. Most of the country is an immigrant, the child of an immigrant or the grand child of an immigrant, so what's "special?"

Sure some groups became a pretty visible part of mainstream culture, particularly food: Chinese, Italian, Lebanese, Vietnamese, German (Octoberfest), Indians are a few. Others seem close to invisible: the Dutch, Poles, Finns and others.
The US has all of this in spades and has for centuries.

Canada got it around the same time as Australia and to a similar degree. Plus it has the French element which predates the arrival of the British in Australia by 150-200 years.

There was early days post-secondary education in Québec around the 1650s or something...
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Old 07-30-2022, 10:19 AM
 
Location: Bergen County, New Jersey
11,952 posts, read 7,701,281 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
I am aware that the Toronto area is pretty diverse. In the United States, all of the large metro areas with 4 million+ residents are diverse as well. Waves of immigrants came to the United States and mainly settled in the urban areas. As they did so, the people who were there before them moved away from those areas. This pattern has held true since the 19th century.

Most of small town and rural America, especially in the northern half of the country, is 95-99% white. You can travel for hundreds of miles in those places and hardly ever see a non-white person living there.
This is very true.

My experiences in Canada were the opposite, where, towns/cities hours outside major urban areas were decently diverse.

Like omitting A few large cities, Upstate New York, Central Pennsylvania, Northern+Western New England and West Virginia towns are pretty much all 95%+ white.
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