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I'm not entirely sure what a city that is populated largely by the already-very-wealthy (oil barons, business moguls, Middle Eastern royalty, European aristocracy, etc) has to do with it, either...
That they ensure their own Arab citizenry is financially set before the low paid immigrants they employ in their city-state?
Why does that matter? I served the U.S. in war, Desert Storm, which gave me a chance to see Dubai. Returning to the U.S. with no college degree, a high school diploma, and literate and able to speak American English, I found right away that those born and raise in Mexico, unable to either speak or read English, were far more likely to gain blue collar employment in Milwaukee than myself or other black males native to Milwaukee and the USofA.
You can get rich Bangladesh. You can be a billionaire in Nigeria. And you can get rich in Canada, the USA, and the UAE too.
It's less likely, unlikely, that you'll have upward mobility in Bangladesh and Nigeria so far as I know. But the United States is not the only place one can make up and down movement in socioeconomic classes.
In fact, most Black-Americans born in middle-class homes today will almost certainly move down in socioeconomic class to the lower-class. Some won't of course.
And it's unlikely--odds so against it I would dare to say never to happen--that can a person be born into abject poverty like Hugo Chavez of Venezuela, Lula of Brazil, and become President of the United States without attending an elite, prestigious university and traveling in an elitist social circle. I doubt an Evo Morales could ever rise in ranks so far in the United States either. Outside of gaming in casinos and horse tracks.
Here's an article on touching on upward mobility in the U.S.
Excerpts.
In terms of grandiose engineering feats and scales of building, the UAE and China are the new Americas'.
I have found memories of the UAE when I briefly visited it in the early '90s. Even then I realized it surpassed the United States in civility and a number of other ways. Money--the money the Dubai Arab citizens have being one of them. for some reason, they like expensive European luxury cars and don't seem to drive American cars.
How do you know about black people when you live in whitebread Wisconsin????
That they ensure their own Arab citizenry is financially set before the low paid immigrants they employ in their city-state?
Why does that matter? I served the U.S. in war, Desert Storm, which gave me a chance to see Dubai. Returning to the U.S. with no college degree, a high school diploma, and literate and able to speak American English, I found right away that those born and raise in Mexico, unable to either speak or read English, were far more likely to gain blue collar employment in Milwaukee than myself or other black males native to Milwaukee and the USofA.
... what makes you think that white, or American-born Asian or Hispanic males were any more likely to get those jobs than laborers from other countries who were willing to work for pennies on the dollar?
I agree with you on these points, and believe that the loss of American manufacturing is absolutely tragic, and have nothing but contempt for the businessmen and politicians that facilitated its loss. It is horrible, especially for a returning veteran - thank you for your service.
But, getting back to what I'd said about being able to relocate... I mean, even the term "upwardly mobile" implies that to go upward, you have to be mobile. Maybe Milwaukee isn't the place to be right now. It's a shame when you can't find what you want in your hometown, but it's not necessarily something that's endemic to the rest of the US.
My best friend from childhood is a black man who grew up in basically the same circumstances I did back in Boston; he's doing great in the Bay Area now.
... what makes you think that white, or American-born Asian or Hispanic males were any more likely to get those jobs than laborers from other countries who were willing to work for pennies on the dollar?
Because my brother's white wife, back when she was coming off welfare, no job history, and a GED, was getting more calls back from employment agencies offering her jobs than my brother was with work history and a college degree?
She's developed a good work history now and has gotten her bachelor degree too I think. He has two master's degree and is teaching in public schools now.
But he was almost psychologically broken with the struggles to fin employment. Even shoveling dirt.
Quote:
My best friend from childhood is a black man who grew up in basically the same circumstances I did back in Boston; he's doing great in the Bay Area now.
This is a good thing. I think finding employment is inevitable if you hang in there long enough. Plus, it helps tremendously if you set yourself up for success (e.g., going for the right kinds of careers etc.). And this is one of the problems with black males in cities like Milwaukee. What they knew of "jobs" were almost always factory and manufacturing work. Plus, selling drugs is seen kind of like getting an M.D.
Jobs being moved out of Milwaukee to almost exclusively white counties outside Milwaukee is another factor.
But I think this is not just a Milwaukee story but a story in pretty much most of the United States.
That claim is not only unsubstantiated, but it's also inconsistent with the point you're trying to make. If people move down the ladder, others must move up, so predicting that a significant portion of the population is going to move down is actually evidence of mobility.
I also have no clue what Dubai has to do with it.
Not neccessarily. I've seen claims that the US middle class as a whole is shrinking. If true, that would mean more people of every ethnic group are moving out than in.
There is a interesting study I read that says people in US have become less risk takers from the past times. Started in the 90's. More and more young people apparently do not want to take the risk or devote the time to become such as they once did. Its gone thru work place to actually mean risk taking on new employees and effects the job market from what I read of the study. I know in many European countries similar studies showed that college graduates in many countries wanted the to work for governament because of the less risk and the security they saw in those jobs.
There is a interesting study I read that says people in US have become less risk takers from the past times. Started in the 90's. More and more young people apparently do not want to take the risk or devote the time to become such as they once did. Its gone thru work place to actually mean risk taking on new employees and effects the job market from what I read of the study. I know in many European countries similar studies showed that college graduates in many countries wanted the to work for governament because of the less risk and the security they saw in those jobs.
Allow me to speculate. I think you may have a point here. Companies also don't take risks like they once did. At one time, you could get hired at a job and the company would invest in training you to do that job well. Well trained employees generally perform better and stick around longer. Now, most places want you to have experience already. If not then some schooling which can replace experience. These employees know that they're marketable and thus may not stick around long. I think as a result, companies invest less in their employees and wages don't keep up with the cost of living. More people become lower class. Just one reason I guess. There are plenty more.
06-21-2013, 11:20 AM
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How would most people quantify the ideas and practical actions in upward mobility? This is obviously based on sociological economic indicators, while also having to go into more specific details.
Real life experience is necessary to use in combination with certain facts statistical demographic information.
I wouldn’t generalize all of Europe for having the same upward social mobility.
I classify most European countries into three main groups for this upward mobility topic from best to worst: 1. Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Netherlands, France, Switzerland, Austria, Finland, Germany, Belgium vs. 2. UK, Czech Republic, Italy, Spain, Portugal vs. 3. Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania, Latvia, Poland, Greece, Bosnia, Bulgaria, Serbia. There is an obvious noticeable difference between countries in Group 1 vs. countries in Group 3.
USA probably ranks somewhere between 5th place to 20th place based on international standards for upward mobility, and continues to rank well, even if not number 1.
This is fine because I want to see many countries doing well for upward mobility and other important topics for people in society.
This topic about upward mobility in various countries is important and appropriate for the World forum, even if the title should have been worded differently and including more places all over the world, especially Canada, Australia, countries in Asia, and some countries in South America.
However, I agree there is plenty of countries all over the world in recent modern times doing well for upward mobility: Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Netherlands, France, Switzerland, Austria, Finland, Germany, Belgium, Canada, Australia, USA, UK, Taiwan, Singapore, South Korea, China, Argentina, Chile.
People shouldn’t view this in an overly competitive mindset because plenty of countries all over the world deserve to benefit from upward mobility, society, lifestyle, opportunities, economy, and quality of life.
Last edited by ; 06-21-2013 at 11:53 AM..
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