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If you're talking outside the DTs/inner cities, the same story seems to apply that you can't judge urbanity/vibrancy from those stats on paper alone. The impression I get from Toronto's metro area is that it's very heavily dependant on strip malls and standalone shopping malls scattered around the place and separated from the streets by large parking lots - sucks life away from the streets. Looks a little 'generic', if that's the right word? Even those pockets of density and 'city centres' don't seem to be different to that.
Mississauga looks to be a good example of this. Looking at it seems to be a cluster of residential high rises and a public square around a network of wide open highways, perhaps with little in the way of street activation and intimacy, centred around a shopping mall with a large ground level parking lot around it separating it from the streets (or perhaps roads in this case)? Primarily suburban in character? This seems to be the case with just about every other of those 'city centres' and high density clusters. Much of them look to be a case of 'high rises in a park'. I noticed the newer developments do incorporate some kind of retail, but I think there's still a lot of work to do before you can count them as 'true', vibrant and busy city centres with downtowns of their own. Perhaps that doesn't go too well in terms of 'urbanity'?
Just because the area is populated it I don't think it automatically mean that it's vibrant, busy or feels so?
Sydney differs from this in that there seems to be much less of a dependence on suburban strip malls etc. and more on those pockets of densities which are in fact well established urban centres. Buildings are tightly packed, streets are walkable, narrow, pedestrianised and activated and everything's integrated together and with the streets (see what I've said before). People flock to those centres so they're certainly busy and cluttered and feel dense and intimate. They're basically functioning downtowns, as you've probably seen in those pics and vids - that's what I was trying to show. Based on what I've seen, at street level I don't think Mississauga or those other city centres in Toronto, (perhaps outside of the length of Yonge St) could perhaps match what Sydney could offer here in terms of vibrancy/busy/urbanity, and figures and numbers can't possibly tell this? On this basis perhaps you can say that Sydney's 'built form' is indeed more 'urban' than Toronto? On google earth Brampton looks a little different, that maybe one exception?
This is very true. Suburbs across the Sydney area are likely to have (somewhat) pedestrian-friendly "village centres" whereas Toronto, although its inner core is very very dense and typical of classic walkable urbanity, as soon as you get out of this zone it's very much as you describe. Very strip mall-ish.
Though they are making strides at retrofitting many of these areas now in Toronto, but it would have been simpler to build them nicer in the first place. Of course, it's a North American scourge and not just a Toronto problem.
This is very true. Suburbs across the Sydney area are likely to have (somewhat) pedestrian-friendly "village centres" whereas Toronto, although its inner core is very very dense and typical of classic walkable urbanity, as soon as you get out of this zone it's very much as you describe. Very strip mall-ish.
Though they are making strides at retrofitting many of these areas now in Toronto, but it would have been simpler to build them nicer in the first place. Of course, it's a North American scourge and not just a Toronto problem.
Fortunately, given the Places that Grow Act it is forcing the city and region to take densification seriously.
Again though both cities have their strong points - and vice versa I know that there's other things that Toronto might be doing better than Sydney. I think we're lucky that we have them both!
Well I totally agree that they are both great cities.. since you seem interested in learning and seeing more about Toronto I thought you would enjoy these.. They show the density of Toronto and some interesting architectural and street scenes many may not know about it.
Don't worry about the comments - pics speak louder than opinions and 'facts'
Its a long thread - but worth seeing it all!
This is very true. Suburbs across the Sydney area are likely to have (somewhat) pedestrian-friendly "village centres" whereas Toronto, although its inner core is very very dense and typical of classic walkable urbanity, as soon as you get out of this zone it's very much as you describe. Very strip mall-ish.
Though they are making strides at retrofitting many of these areas now in Toronto, but it would have been simpler to build them nicer in the first place. Of course, it's a North American scourge and not just a Toronto problem.
Yep, these centres are generally all around Sydney and vary in size depending on significance. They can range from being a larger satellite city (Chatswood, Parramatta, Hurstville, Bondi Junction etc.) which serve a particular region in the metro, to being a smaller village or town centre (Lane Cove, Cronulla, Eastwood, Campsie etc.) which are more local. For this reason I think Sydney feels more like a network of individual cities which thankfully happens to also have a strong central core.
I think the reason those centres are built the way they are is because of their age - Sydney's train system developed very early in its history and that encouraged growth not just at the core but also further out and around the train lines. This happened long before the age of the automobile, and when they eventually came all the lower density suburbs simply grew around them. In fact Parramatta is often regarded as Australia's second oldest city, being that it was established even before Melbourne.
Another thing is that while I'm not sure about Toronto or other North American cities I feel that in Sydney, while it does have a Chinatown and other cultures around the central core, they have a somewhat touristic vibe to it, and a more authentic cultural experience could be had around the suburbs in those centres. Eg. Strathfield would be Sydney's equivalent of a Koreatown due to a strong Korean presence around the area, Cabramatta a little Saigon while Lakemba and the south west has more of a middle eastern influence etc.
And yes, I did notice the strip mall thing is rather typical for North American cities. Though I've noticed San Francisco (Berkeley, San Mateo and around the whole bay area) and especially Chicago (Evanston, Oak Park etc.) does seem have an amount of 'town centres', but perhaps they're little bit fewer and more spread apart from each other than in Sydney. I'm guessing though this strip mall thing will eventually fade as the trend is that cities around the world are becoming increasingly dense and urban.
Last edited by ciTydude123; 01-16-2014 at 10:05 AM..
Well I totally agree that they are both great cities.. since you seem interested in learning and seeing more about Toronto I thought you would enjoy these.. They show the density of Toronto and some interesting architectural and street scenes many may not know about it.
Don't worry about the comments - pics speak louder than opinions and 'facts'
Its a long thread - but worth seeing it all!
Yes, you could say I'm rather interested in Toronto but also North America as a whole in fact - that's what I joined this forum for! Would jump at a chance to visit - but unfortunately had none so far
And excellent links too! If there's one thing it's that you guys in Toronto seem to have some excellent photographers who can really bring out the city in those shots!
Yep, these centres are generally all around Sydney and vary in size depending on significance. They can range from being a larger satellite city (Chatswood, Parramatta, Hurstville, Bondi Junction etc.) which serve a particular region in the metro, to being a smaller village or town centre (Lane Cove, Cronulla, Eastwood, Campsie etc.) which are more local. For this reason I think Sydney feels more like a network of individual cities which thankfully happens to also have a strong central core.
I think the reason those centres are built the way they are is because of their age - Sydney's train system developed very early in its history and that encouraged growth not just at the core but also further out and around the train lines. This happened long before the age of the automobile, and when they eventually came all the lower density suburbs simply grew around them. In fact Parramatta is often regarded as Australia's second oldest city, being that it was established even before Melbourne.
Another thing is that while I'm not sure about Toronto or other North American cities I feel that in Sydney, while it does have a Chinatown and other cultures around the central core, they have a somewhat touristic vibe to it, and a more authentic cultural experience could be had around the suburbs in those centres. Eg. Strathfield would be Sydney's equivalent of a Koreatown due to a strong Korean presence around the area, Cabramatta a little Saigon while Lakemba and the south west has more of a middle eastern influence etc.
And yes, I did notice the strip mall thing is rather typical for North American cities. Though I've noticed San Francisco (Berkeley, San Mateo and around the whole bay area) and especially Chicago (Evanston, Oak Park etc.) does seem have an amount of 'town centres', but perhaps they're little bit fewer and more spread apart from each other than in Sydney. I'm guessing though this strip mall thing will eventually fade as the trend is that cities around the world are becoming increasingly dense and urban.
Cities like Parramatta were also founded very early, not long after Sydney itself, and Parramatta in particular developed independently from Sydney. It's a city in itself, with it's own downtown, centered around Westfield Parramatta, include a lot of office space and even a few high-rises. The others were a result of both the railway system and planning policy which encouraged the development of strong regional centres. Melbourne has less of these large centres in the suburbs, although places like Dandenong, Frankston, and even Geelong would count.
Well Sydney and SF are very touristy cities, if you went to Houston or something in the US you would not see tons of tourists in the CBD. Most of the cities in the US I went to also attracted a lot of tourists but I felt they weren't as dominated by tourists aside from NY, DC (many domestic tourists) parts of LA. I think the fact Australia has more overseas born accounts for that too. The Bay Area is a conglomeration of separate cities that have merged into one metro, even moreso than Sydney, while Chicago has more of a strong core. LA is the ultimate example of that too, it's been called 'a hundred suburbs in search of a city' but in reality it's literally like a hundred separate cities - if you include Orange County. It has no dominant node, Hollywood has more foot-traffic than downtown LA, than you have Century City, Studio City, Burbank, Hollywood, as well areas like Santa Monica, WeHo, Silver Lake, Long Beach further out.
Strip malls are convenient, I will say that, but yeah they cater only to drivers. I find many of the outer suburbs here in Perth, say around Joondalup, really bleak with roads as wide as the Pacific, chain dominated shopping centres or strip malls but no or pretty manufactured urban precincts (I know the latter can't be helped in newer areas), not a lot of vegetation, generic clone-like houses, a cultural wasteland...
Yes, you could say I'm rather interested in Toronto but also North America as a whole in fact - that's what I joined this forum for! Would jump at a chance to visit - but unfortunately had none so far
And excellent links too! If there's one thing it's that you guys in Toronto seem to have some excellent photographers who can really bring out the city in those shots!
Oh so you haven't visited before?
Yeah I've always had a fascination with the US, I think it was largely based on pop culture, and finally visited in 2011. Went cross-country from LA to Boston, it was amazing, but I think overall I'd still rather live in Australia. I would still like to live there for a couple of years though, NY or somewhere in the Northeast.
Cities like Parramatta were also founded very early, not long after Sydney itself, and Parramatta in particular developed independently from Sydney. It's a city in itself, with it's own downtown, centered around Westfield Parramatta, include a lot of office space and even a few high-rises. The others were a result of both the railway system and planning policy which encouraged the development of strong regional centres. Melbourne has less of these large centres in the suburbs, although places like Dandenong, Frankston, and even Geelong would count.
Well Sydney and SF are very touristy cities, if you went to Houston or something in the US you would not see tons of tourists in the CBD. Most of the cities in the US I went to also attracted a lot of tourists but I felt they weren't as dominated by tourists aside from NY, DC (many domestic tourists) parts of LA. I think the fact Australia has more overseas born accounts for that too. The Bay Area is a conglomeration of separate cities that have merged into one metro, even moreso than Sydney, while Chicago has more of a strong core. LA is the ultimate example of that too, it's been called 'a hundred suburbs in search of a city' but in reality it's literally like a hundred separate cities - if you include Orange County. It has no dominant node, Hollywood has more foot-traffic than downtown LA, than you have Century City, Studio City, Burbank, Hollywood, as well areas like Santa Monica, WeHo, Silver Lake, Long Beach further out.
Strip malls are convenient, I will say that, but yeah they cater only to drivers. I find many of the outer suburbs here in Perth, say around Joondalup, really bleak with roads as wide as the Pacific, chain dominated shopping centres or strip malls but no or pretty manufactured urban precincts (I know the latter can't be helped in newer areas), not a lot of vegetation, generic clone-like houses, a cultural wasteland...
Many of the Toronto suburbs are long-established distinct towns as well, even though at one point in most cases they were amalgamated into larger municipalities. For example Mississauga has maybe 700,000 people but has former towns within it like Cooksville, Lorne Park, Port Credit, Clarkson. But although these former villages and their main streets have not died out, they have lost their predominant role as the commercial centre for their immediate vicinity, and most such activities have moved to auto-dependent strips unfortunately.
This is not really related to the amalgamation BTW, and is more about a generalized North American trend.
Many of the Toronto suburbs are long-established distinct towns as well, even though at one point in most cases they were amalgamated into larger municipalities. For example Mississauga has maybe 700,000 people but has former towns within it like Cooksville, Lorne Park, Port Credit, Clarkson. But although these former villages and their main streets have not died out, they have lost their predominant role as the commercial centre for their immediate vicinity, and most such activities have moved to auto-dependent strips unfortunately.
This is not really related to the amalgamation BTW, and is more about a generalized North American trend.
Good point! - Old Toronto including the DT core is really the 'best' part of of the city in terms of urbanity.. It isn't until you get out of Old Toronto and into Etobicoke, North York and Scarborough that the nasty looking sprawl kicks in. It is these places in Toronto outside the old city that really took on the generalized N.A trend of auto-dependent strips because of when and where the growth occurred after the 50's and 60's.. Any little bits of urbanity in these places have been enveloped by high density commie block nodes, gross low to mid rise housing and massive shopping complexes.. some still exist but are lost in a see of mediocrity - little diamonds in the rough. Any poor soul that walks into the many mega malls in the GTA I pity them - they'd be run over and over again by crazy suburbanites in their SUV's! If Toronto didn't have Old Toronto than any bland characterization with respect to built form would certainly be well deserved
The trick for the city now - as more and more people move into Old Toronto and specifically the DT core is to ensure we retain our heritage bay and gable/victorian housing architecture and to preserve heritage buildings. I don't mind an 80 story condo going up replacing a parking lot - I do mind an 80 story building going up that obliterates the buildings and areas that give Old Toronto its character!
I've been to both cities. Every street in both cities have different density. Some parts of Toronto felt more dense and busy than Sydney, and vice versa.
Sydney also has milder winters so you may encounter more people on the streets than in Toronto during midwinter.
Toronto overall feels more dense and busy, much more skyscrapers, more tourists and more traffic.
You cannot vote or judge based on what you see on google street view. Weather and time is big factor as well.
I would have never guessed Toronto gets more tourists. Then again, I'll bet a lot of people drive to Toronto after visiting Niagara Falls.
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On google earth Brampton looks a little different, that maybe one exception?
