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But I'm not, nor have I compared these cities to European cities. Several people have even said that it makes no sense to compare them. It makes perfect sense not to include Capitol Hill because it is not considered a part of downtown as far as that city is concerned. This is really not complicated.
I thought that was the point of the thread? Or rather at least a comparison that's at least somewhat consistent worldwide. A downtown definition is rather aribitary.
I was not in any Chicago VS Toronto argument. I don't think anyone was??? Natnadci and fusion2 had a few exchanges and another? I merely posted this on Vancouver ⤵
Fusion 2... then replied to my post....as if I was putting Toronto down? I then explained it was merely AS YET Toronto did not have that world recognizable skyline. Despite CN Tower. He then understood and we did not argue.. Chicago was not in the exchange. A few pages earlier... I defended American cities and Chicago with pictures. When ...Ariente.... said North American cities just have poor planning and bland? When he posted this⤵
To clarify what I took away from the exchange was that I felt the CN Tower is an iconic structure and that in most any city there are only 1 or 2 iconic structures...
Also, I often wonder why cities such as Dallas, Houston and Phoenix seem to have downtowns devoid of life. I still haven't come up with an answer, though.
I think there's several reasons, they grew heavily in the post-war period when everyone was fleeing to the suburbs and old buildings in the core were being torn down for parking lots. They're also flat and not constrained by geography, so there was plenty of room to build new commercial and residential outside the core. And Phoenix and Houston and Dallas also have hot summer climates where people might seek air conditioned shopping and activities.
Though I think it's mostly the first two. An older city like New Orleans has plenty of pedestrian acivity in certain core neighborhoods--but it's constrained by geography in how it could grow--and it's a very old city that developed pre-auto. If you look at the most vibrant places in the States or Canada they usually were built up to some degree prior to the 1940s(or earlier) and often have geographically tight locations on water or hills.
I thought that was the point of the thread? Or rather at least a comparison that's at least somewhat consistent worldwide. A downtown definition is rather aribitary.
That word is so common on these forums. Whether you think it's arbitrary or not, it's still a definition and it isn't going to change because you think it ought to.
Ok, let's clear things up a bit. In the USA and I presume Canada as well, downtown is the area where the headquarters of the city are located. City-hall, main police station, main post office etc. as well as shopping and things for people to do. What you're talking about are commercial districts. By this definition, a city like San Diego has multiple downtowns. Let me explain:
Downtown SD is what I just explained above. However it doesn't necessarily reflect where all things take place, even commute patterns. A good number of the commercial businesses are not in downtown but in Kearny Mesa which is about 6 miles or so north of downtown. A great many people in San Diego commute there for work. It has restaurants, banks, radio and TV stations, car dealerships as well as various office parks. No high-rise buildings though. It would be silly to consider this part of downtown when it's geographically not only distant but separated as it is north of Mission Valley which is a dividing line in SD. It's not even in the same area code nor is it served by the same cable provider as downtown. It is still San Diego. Now closer but still not adjacent is the University Heights and Hillcrest areas which are very similar to Seattle's Capitol Hill. Very vibrant parts of SD almost exactly at the city geographic center. You wouldn't walk from Hillcrest to downtown and generally would take the freeway to get there. By your definition, this could be a downtown too but it isn't. Then there's Sorrento Valley, another business area. Then there's La Jolla with it's own sort of downtown area. While it is common to refer to it as La Jolla, CA, it is still part of the city of San Diego.
Despite all of this, when the word downtown is mentioned in San Diego, everyone knows where you're talking about and it's not any of the above areas. The only time there ever seems to be confusion is on these forums for what ever reason.
To clarify what I took away from the exchange was that I felt the CN Tower is an iconic structure and that in most any city there are only 1 or 2 iconic structures...
This makes perfect sense to me. San Francisco is easily identified by the Transamerica Pyramid and Seattle by the Space Needle even though many don't consider that downtown where it is but whatever.
Location: East Central Pennsylvania/ Chicago for 6yrs.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei
I didn't see what that has to do with a good downtown. Ariete doesn't care for skyscrapers in a downtown, or at least wouldn't use skyline to evaluate how good a city center is.
I realize European cities and in other parts of the world date centuries earlier have great street level vibrancy ... Most sights that post which cities have the Best Centre (downtown) Chose cities NOT in North America?? Does not mean we should not defend a comment to.... our cities just have bland box skyscrapers? In the US some put Manhattan so far over the other US cities? Its merely notable mentions left to a couple others?
Aries .....said he expected heat on his comment? I gave some mild disagreement and of course pictures. Some sights full of people.... just not streets or intersections. It is true though. American downtowns are primarily business cores. Shopping to a theater district only good to great in a few, but getting better in most.. Most do not even have their nightlife areas in downtown.
But those cities with Skyscraper living downtown and growing... with other new housing like townhouses going up and lofts in old manufacturing and former warehouses in between. All Add to increasing Downtown vibrancy. I point out Chicago is a great example of adding 10s of thousands now living in its downtown. When the Loop, River North, Near North, East side up through Streeterville. The population is over 180,000 I have read.
You can't defend American cities and not note aspects of Skylines have a value too? But examples of bland skyscrapers does not mean all are ? Especially as some cities have plenty of older stock between the new.
Does one persons dislike for skyscrapers downtown? Mean American cities should just concede defeat.... and in a big way?
That word is so common on these forums. Whether you think it's arbitrary or not, it's still a definition and it isn't going to change because you think it ought to.
Ok, let's clear things up a bit. In the USA and I presume Canada as well, downtown is the area where the headquarters of the city are located. City-hall, main police station, main post office etc. as well as shopping and things for people to do. What you're talking about are commercial districts. By this definition, a city like San Diego has multiple downtowns.
Well, how can you tell where the main headquarters of the city has ended and it's not downtown? It's not always obvious. I thought downtown can also be a synonym for "city center" especially since this thread isn't US-specific but on the world forum.
Well, how can you tell where the main headquarters of the city has ended and it's not downtown? It's not always obvious. I thought downtown can also be a synonym for "city center" especially since this thread isn't US-specific but on the world forum.
What does that question even mean? Are you asking when do you know when you have left a downtown? If so, nothing I can tell you is going to help you. If you can't tell when you've left one area and entered another, there's a problem much deeper than I'm qualified to help you with.
The first picture is Belltown. Some people like Belltown, some don't. The second shows the monorail. That building that it ends up at is the end of the line. That's Westlake Village. Pine is a shopping street. I never did much shopping in Seattle but now I am beginning to perhaps give Seattle more credit than before. CanuckInPortland may have made a good point in his posts as Seattle does have high end shopping than San Diego. Indeed, Nordstrom is headquartered there. I just remember it becoming a ghost town at night where as San Diego's downtown doesn't.
Yes, Seattle is a very clean city. Compared to California cities it is ridiculously clean. Downtown San Diego and especially San Francisco often smell like urine. They are definitely much grittier especially San Francisco.
This is due partly to weather. The rain is nature's flush.
In English-speaking Canada you see both "Downtown" and the more British style ''City Centre'' on highway signs, depending on the region. In bilingual New Brunswick they just use the word "Centre" which works in both languages. So the exit for downtown Moncton says ''Moncton Centre".
But in spoken Canadian English, it's always downtown people say.
Yes, here in BC the signs directing people say " City Centre " but when speaking people will say downtown. One metro stop in Vancouver is called " Vancouver Centre ".
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