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Old 01-04-2014, 02:09 AM
 
Location: Finland
24,257 posts, read 20,818,729 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ben86 View Post
To those who live in countries where you have to be a native-born citizen to be the head of state - what's the reasoning behind that law?
After 700 years of foreign head of states, a natural-born citizen is considered as a "life insurance" for the nation's independence. As the president is the supreme commander of the military, formerly had the right to dissolve the government and is the head of foreign policy as well, it's assured that the loyalty of the president lies with Finland and Finland only. Say if the president would be Dutch-Finnish and Finland would be in war with the Netherlands, would the president symphatize with his former home country openly or in secret?
Also with the law it becomes impossible for a foreign government to install a "puppet president", who's loyalty would be with the installer's country, like Germany, Sweden or Russia.
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Old 01-04-2014, 02:34 AM
 
Location: Hong Kong / Vienna
4,557 posts, read 5,533,591 times
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So, if the son of a Finnish/American diplomat is born abroad there is no chance of ever becoming President, because of the very nature of daddy's job?
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Old 01-04-2014, 02:47 AM
 
Location: Finland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viribusunitis View Post
So, if the son of a Finnish/American diplomat is born abroad there is no chance of ever becoming President, because of the very nature of daddy's job?
No, if the mother holds a Finnish passport at birth (despite being abroad), the child is given a Finnish nationality, and so the child is "natural born". If the mother holds only US citizenship at birth, gaining Finnish nationality only after, then it's impossible for the son to become president.
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Old 01-04-2014, 05:16 AM
 
Location: Yorkshire, England
5,599 posts, read 9,023,931 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete View Post
After 700 years of foreign head of states, a natural-born citizen is considered as a "life insurance" for the nation's independence. As the president is the supreme commander of the military, formerly had the right to dissolve the government and is the head of foreign policy as well, it's assured that the loyalty of the president lies with Finland and Finland only. Say if the president would be Dutch-Finnish and Finland would be in war with the Netherlands, would the president symphatize with his former home country openly or in secret?
Also with the law it becomes impossible for a foreign government to install a "puppet president", who's loyalty would be with the installer's country, like Germany, Sweden or Russia.
I understand a different perspective if you've had a history of foreign domination unlike us, but do you think the above is assured though? A law like that still wouldn't stop a native-born Quisling whose loyalties were elsewhere. Likewise, if any foreign country had the power to install a puppet president then presumably they would also have the power to ignore/rip up the constitution and nobody would be able to do anything about it, much like Vichy France.
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Old 01-04-2014, 06:03 AM
 
Location: Finland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ben86 View Post
I understand a different perspective if you've had a history of foreign domination unlike us, but do you think the above is assured though? A law like that still wouldn't stop a native-born Quisling whose loyalties were elsewhere. Likewise, if any foreign country had the power to install a puppet president then presumably they would also have the power to ignore/rip up the constitution and nobody would be able to do anything about it, much like Vichy France.
I don't think that. But the people who made the law in the 1910's apparently thought. And none has applied a "vichy" regime on us, so maybe the law IS working!

And I don't defend that law, I just stated the reasoning behind it. I would have no problem with an African-Finnish president.
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Old 01-04-2014, 06:28 AM
 
Location: Yorkshire, England
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete View Post
I don't think that. But the people who made the law in the 1910's apparently thought. And none has applied a "vichy" regime on us, so maybe the law IS working!

And I don't defend that law, I just stated the reasoning behind it. I would have no problem with an African-Finnish president.
That's because you more or less applied it on yourselves first:

Paasikivi
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Old 01-04-2014, 08:44 AM
 
Location: Finland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ben86 View Post
That's because you more or less applied it on yourselves first:

Paasikivi
Paasikivi was a staunch nationalist and well aware of the Soviet threat, and Kekkonen continued that policy. That guideline at the time was realistic and necessary, which also stimulated the Finnish economy. We had no choice with the Paasikivi-Kekkonen line, as you guys left us out in the cold twice, in 1940 and 1945. OK, Finland would've sided with Germany probably in any case, but maybe a miracle could've happened...

The Finlandization started only later, in late 60's and the 70's, and that was miserable and exaggerated. But even if our foreign policy was limited, we were able to keep our capitalist market economy, continue to have a monopoly on trade to the Soviet Union, and become a Nordic welfare state.

To throw the Paasikivi-Kekkonen line of appeasement and forced cooperation to my face is a bit unfair, I think. What choice did we have? Would the UK, France and Sweden gone to war to defend little Finland against the Soviet Union? Well definitely not.
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Old 01-04-2014, 08:50 AM
 
Location: Yorkshire, England
5,599 posts, read 9,023,931 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete View Post
Paasikivi was a staunch nationalist and well aware of the Soviet threat, and Kekkonen continued that policy. That guideline at the time was realistic and necessary, which also stimulated the Finnish economy. We had no choice with the Paasikivi-Kekkonen line, as you guys left us out in the cold twice, in 1940 and 1945. OK, Finland would've sided with Germany probably in any case, but maybe a miracle could've happened...

The Finlandization started only later, in late 60's and the 70's, and that was miserable and exaggerated. But even if our foreign policy was limited, we were able to keep our capitalist market economy, continue to have a monopoly on trade to the Soviet Union, and become a Nordic welfare state.

To throw the Paasikivi-Kekkonen line of appeasement and forced cooperation to my face is a bit unfair, I think. What choice did we have? Would the UK, France and Sweden gone to war to defend little Finland against the Soviet Union? Well definitely not.
I realise you had no choice, hence the "" to show I wasn't being all that serious. (Maybe would have gone down better?)
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Old 01-04-2014, 09:04 AM
 
Location: Finland
24,257 posts, read 20,818,729 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ben86 View Post
I realise you had no choice, hence the "" to show I wasn't being all that serious. (Maybe would have gone down better?)
History doesn't always go our way. Yeah, we had no choice in foreign policy, but the Finlandization and self-censorship that happened should and must be criticised, that was excessive.
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Old 01-04-2014, 10:02 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,661 posts, read 78,578,037 times
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Benjamin Netanyahu was the first Israeli prime minister born in Israel, and only two of his nine predecessors were even born in the Middle East (Allon and Rabin, born in Palestine). Of the other seven, four were born in Russia, two in Poland and one in USA.

--------

King George II of Great Britain was born in Hanover, what is now Germany and what was then the Holy Roman Empire, in 1683.

Last edited by jtur88; 01-04-2014 at 10:33 AM..
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