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Old 01-28-2014, 06:53 PM
 
Location: Melbourne, Australia
9,781 posts, read 18,466,112 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenbear5599 View Post
USA is off the charts

I quote

"Nor is he without an argument when we reflect on America’s embrace of abortion on demand, homosexual marriage, pornography, promiscuity, and the whole panoply of Hollywood values.

Our grandparents would not recognize the America in which we live.

Moreover, Putin asserts, the new immorality has been imposed undemocratically."
North America seems to have the most liberal abortion laws, or at least until recently. Prostitution laws are more liberal here, it's legal in Australia and NZ.
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Old 01-28-2014, 07:16 PM
 
Location: Melbourne, Australia
9,781 posts, read 18,466,112 times
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Thought this was relevant:

Why Australia is perceived as racist
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Old 01-28-2014, 08:02 PM
 
Location: On the "Left Coast", somewhere in "the Land of Fruits & Nuts"
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^ ^ One of the causes of the American Revolution was the British practice of using the American colonies as a dumping ground for convicts. After the American Revolution, Britain began to use her remaining colonies as penal colonies, including of course Australia. Many of these criminals were Protestants from Ulster -- aka, Ulster Scots. Perhaps not coincidentally, xenophobia, distrust of "elites", and a fondness for 'drinking', have always been strong values (among others) within the Ulster-Scots culture.
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Old 01-28-2014, 08:11 PM
 
Location: Melbourne, Australia
9,781 posts, read 18,466,112 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mateo45 View Post
^ ^ One of the causes of the American Revolution was the British practice of using the American colonies as a dumping ground for convicts. After the American Revolution, Britain began to use her remaining colonies as penal colonies, including of course Australia. Many of these criminals were Protestants from Ulster -- aka, Ulster Scots. Perhaps not coincidentally, xenophobia, distrust of "elites", and a fondness for 'drinking', have always been strong values (among others) within the Ulster-Scots culture.
Not many Ulster Scots in Australia. Mostly English, Irish (Catholics), Scottish. Don't know how the Ulster Scots were more xenophobic than the others, and of course we all know about the Irish, Scottish and English and drinking.
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Old 01-28-2014, 08:22 PM
 
Location: On the "Left Coast", somewhere in "the Land of Fruits & Nuts"
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So the founding of Australia by convicts is a myth?
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Old 01-28-2014, 08:25 PM
 
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mateo45 View Post
So the founding of Australia by convicts is a myth?
Well the first Europeans to explore Australia were the Dutch, but it was the British who of course established the first permanent settlements. Captain Cook, Phillip etc were not convicts, and many on the first fleet were free settlers, but convicts played a big role developing the early settlements. Some could earn their freedom after a few years. Some went back to England but most remained as free settlers. By the 1860s the stream of convicts had pretty much stopped but immigration from Britain remained strong.
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Old 01-28-2014, 08:50 PM
 
Location: On the "Left Coast", somewhere in "the Land of Fruits & Nuts"
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Have heard of this Aussie "ambivalence", if not outright 'De Nile' about its convict 'roots'.

The Fatal Shore: The Epic of Australia's Founding, by Robert Hughes
"It is an appalling story. The brutal punishments, the sadism, the genocide of the indigenous peoples, the near-fatal conditions of the early settlements--much of this is known on a general basis. But Hughes demonstrates that there is too simplistic a view of that period. At the time of his publication, he asserts that Australians did not really know their own history, that much had been whitewashed, and aspects that might be embarrassing ignored."


The convicts who made Australia
They weren't the first Australians. But they were the first permanent white, English-speaking settlers, the people who gave the country much of the character it still has today. Between 1788 and 1869 over 162,000 convicts were sent out to the empty continent. This was cheaper than keeping them in prisons in Britain or Ireland. Who were they? Some were indeed dangerous criminals. Many, however, had done nothing worse than steal a lamb or some food for their families. Almost all of them had experienced terrible poverty. There were some who had fought against British power in Ireland. The first 11 convict ships that arrived in Sydney Harbour in 1788 brought 776 men, women and even children. They had to try to produce enough food in the bush to feed themselves. A few escaped into the outback. The natives were usually friendly to them, but a number of escaped convicts were killed by frightened Aboriginals.

The convicts were used all over Australia to build the roads into the interior, to work in mining or on private sheep stations.

Some colonies, like Western Australia, tried to manage without convicts, but there were never enough immigrants to do the work - until 1851, when the discovery of gold caused immigration from Europe to increase. And in 1868 the convict ships stopped coming.
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Old 01-28-2014, 09:16 PM
 
1,100 posts, read 1,530,239 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mateo45 View Post
Have heard of this Aussie "ambivalence", if not outright 'De Nile' about its convict 'roots'.

The Fatal Shore: The Epic of Australia's Founding, by Robert Hughes
"It is an appalling story. The brutal punishments, the sadism, the genocide of the indigenous peoples, the near-fatal conditions of the early settlements--much of this is known on a general basis. But Hughes demonstrates that there is too simplistic a view of that period. At the time of his publication, he asserts that Australians did not really know their own history, that much had been whitewashed, and aspects that might be embarrassing ignored."


The convicts who made Australia
They weren't the first Australians. But they were the first permanent white, English-speaking settlers, the people who gave the country much of the character it still has today. Between 1788 and 1869 over 162,000 convicts were sent out to the empty continent. This was cheaper than keeping them in prisons in Britain or Ireland. Who were they? Some were indeed dangerous criminals. Many, however, had done nothing worse than steal a lamb or some food for their families. Almost all of them had experienced terrible poverty. There were some who had fought against British power in Ireland. The first 11 convict ships that arrived in Sydney Harbour in 1788 brought 776 men, women and even children. They had to try to produce enough food in the bush to feed themselves. A few escaped into the outback. The natives were usually friendly to them, but a number of escaped convicts were killed by frightened Aboriginals.

The convicts were used all over Australia to build the roads into the interior, to work in mining or on private sheep stations.

Some colonies, like Western Australia, tried to manage without convicts, but there were never enough immigrants to do the work - until 1851, when the discovery of gold caused immigration from Europe to increase. And in 1868 the convict ships stopped coming.
I know Hughes had a book to sell but "whitewash"? What you've outlined there is pretty much the style of early Australian history most of us were taught at school.

But I think a lot of Australians get annoyed with foreigners who overplay the convict angle, or ignore the fact that it's only one part of Australian history. It's like saying that the landing of the Pilgrims was the only definitive event in American history, and that the waves of immigration that followed, the gold rushes, the war of independence or civil war are all somehow not that relevant or worthy of analysis.
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Old 01-28-2014, 09:52 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
16,109 posts, read 11,524,988 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Postman View Post
North America seems to have the most liberal abortion laws, or at least until recently. Prostitution laws are more liberal here, it's legal in Australia and NZ.
Canada has not changed it's abortion laws, still totally legal. Prostitution is also legal in Canada, although it had some restrictions regarding living off the avails of prostitution and brothels, the Supreme Court recently declared them unconstitutional. The gov't has to come up with new laws in regards to that ruling. Might be similar to what's happening in some states in Australia at the moment.

While we are on the topic, Sex clubs are also legal in Canada. Back in 2005 a new ruling made it so.
From Canada.com
" Swingers clubs that feature group sex and partner-swapping are legal because they cause society no harm, the Supreme Court of Canada said Wednesday in a ruling that rewrote the definition of indecency."

and if this isn't a liberal viewpoint I don't know what is.

"The 7-2 majority said the new determining factor will be whether the sexual behaviour in question causes harm, replacing the previous yardstick that the act must offend community standards of tolerance.
"Moral views, even if strongly held, do not suffice," wrote Chief Justice Beverley McLachlin.

"As members of a diverse society, we must be prepared to tolerate conduct of which we disapprove."

I have no idea the status of these clubs in the other countries mentioned in this thread. ( I said status, I have NOT been to one of these clubs in Canada or anywhere )
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Old 01-28-2014, 10:36 PM
 
Location: On the "Left Coast", somewhere in "the Land of Fruits & Nuts"
8,864 posts, read 9,508,636 times
Reputation: 6645
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1098 View Post
I know Hughes had a book to sell but "whitewash"? What you've outlined there is pretty much the style of early Australian history most of us were taught at school.

But I think a lot of Australians get annoyed with foreigners who overplay the convict angle, or ignore the fact that it's only one part of Australian history. It's like saying that the landing of the Pilgrims was the only definitive event in American history, and that the waves of immigration that followed, the gold rushes, the war of independence or civil war are all somehow not that relevant or worthy of analysis.
Well, I'd hardly compare the hundred or so Pilgrims who willingly came to America, to the hundreds of thousands of convicts brought to Australia against their will! And I'm sorry Aussies are unhappy with "foreigners" for simply pointing out the historical facts, instead of "enabling" their well-documented 'De Nile' and general ambivalence re: their own history.

But OK, so we disagree, although in fairness I'm citing more than simply my "opinion" here ("furiner" or no). And BTW, I hope you're not suggesting that only 'Aussies' are "entitled" to voice their opinions about the conditions in 'Oz' ('cuz heaven knows, they sure have their opinions about the U.S.)!
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