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Old 12-13-2007, 10:23 PM
 
Location: Earth
17,443 posts, read 26,136,757 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhassler View Post
Wherever you have multiple, often disparate, cultures/classes living in close proximity to one another, you're going to have crime and violence.
Also the US and UK have more economic inequality and are living under right wing governments who have drastically cut social services and social programs (while New Labour is technically centrist it's to the right of the Tories under Grocer Heath, just as Bill Clinton was to the right of the GOP under Tricky Dicky Nixon)
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Old 12-13-2007, 10:32 PM
 
Location: St. Louis, MO
63 posts, read 186,672 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by majoun View Post
Also the US and UK have more economic inequality and are living under right wing governments who have drastically cut social services and social programs (while New Labour is technically centrist it's to the right of the Tories under Grocer Heath, just as Bill Clinton was to the right of the GOP under Tricky Dicky Nixon)
If anything, social welfare in the US have contributed to social disparity and inequality. When you try and institute pockets of socialism in a society with capitalist values, "hangers on" are often left behind.

These programs usually result destroying the humanity and dignity of the individual, and the attitude of "I'll never be able to do any better...so why even try?" usually results.

Unfortunately, freedom comes with the opportunity to make bad decisions, and to have some bad luck...I'd rather have the opportunity to choose how to run my own life than be subject to a "nanny" state. These programs take away the incentive to make good decisions and take risks to succeed. In coming from the inner city in a racially divided city, I've observed it firsthand.

Unfortunately, an easy life, and never having to endure hardship or hard work are not rights guaranteed by the US Constitution...however, some would like to see that they are.
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Old 12-14-2007, 04:23 AM
 
Location: England
578 posts, read 2,964,978 times
Reputation: 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by hello-world View Post
why are several american cities so violent?

why is scotland and the UK so violent? IRA? weather?

and does anyone have a link to an article listing the most violent cities in the developed world?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4257966.stm

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...icle568214.ece

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=2304

Take these reports as you will.
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Old 12-14-2007, 05:35 AM
 
Location: Oxford, England
13,036 posts, read 23,211,828 times
Reputation: 20115
Quote:
Originally Posted by hello-world View Post
why are several american cities so violent?

why is scotland and the UK so violent? IRA? weather?

and does anyone have a link to an article listing the most violent cities in the developed world?
Most of the violence in Scotland seems alcohol related. We had a friend who worked for Strathclyde Police and most people who were assaulted knew their victims and were drunk at the time of the assault as were the perpetrators.

Alcoholism is a huge problem , there is a drinking until you fall over culture in the UK and Scotland is the worst.
There are also a lot of pockets of deprived areas in parts of Glasgow and Edinburgh and drugs can be a problem.

However the statistics make it sound as though it is unsafe to walk the streets and that is not a true reflection of life in Scotland.

It is a very safe place to live and visit ( as you are highly unlikely to end up in the deprived areas as a visitor/tourist) and a beautiful and wonderful country.

Friday and Saturday nights at the end of pub closing time is the only time you might encounter people who are aggressive though most Scots like Irish people tend to be "Happy" and silly drunks rather than violent ones.

The UK really needs to do something about the drinking culture though, it is getting out of hand and creating social problems which weren' t there.
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Old 12-14-2007, 08:34 AM
 
1,267 posts, read 3,143,879 times
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thanks. each of these is the same article! have you seen anything that talks about any possible "why's"?

i can see how alcoholism might be part of it, though it could be good to see some sort of causal study or something. and, why is alcoholism such an issue in scotland? economics? weather? is the IRA active in scotland? i admit that the scotch whiskey is pretty good.

i agree with some of the posts concerning disparity in cultures resulting in violence. i think the media has a lot to do with it in the US, personally. i think it shows people what they don't have and maybe can't have, while desensitizing to or even glamorizing violence. though, in america, i feel that violence has been part and parcel from it's inception. sort of, "if you want it, you can take it with force" kinds of things pretty much since columbus (or even before amongst aboriginal people of the americas) on down through the wars. it doesn't help to displace a bunch of people and use them for your own gain - those scars don't just go away "out of sight out of mind". have there been these kinds of factors in the UK history? protestant revolution? danish bullying a millenium ago?
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Old 12-14-2007, 08:47 AM
 
Location: Oxford, England
13,036 posts, read 23,211,828 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hello-world View Post
thanks. each of these is the same article! have you seen anything that talks about any possible "why's"?

i can see how alcoholism might be part of it, though it could be good to see some sort of causal study or something. and, why is alcoholism such an issue in scotland? economics? weather? is the IRA active in scotland? i admit that the scotch whiskey is pretty good.

i agree with some of the posts concerning disparity in cultures resulting in violence. i think the media has a lot to do with it in the US, personally. i think it shows people what they don't have and maybe can't have, while desensitizing to or even glamorizing violence. though, in america, i feel that violence has been part and parcel from it's inception. sort of, "if you want it, you can take it with force" kinds of things pretty much since columbus (or even before amongst aboriginal people of the americas) on down through the wars. it doesn't help to displace a bunch of people and use them for your own gain - those scars don't just go away "out of sight out of mind". have there been these kinds of factors in the UK history? protestant revolution? danish bullying a millenium ago?


The binge-drinking culture is everywhere in the UK, not just in Scotland. The Brits seem to be unable to enjoy themselves without drinking to excess and there is an expectation when you go out for an evening that you will get smashed out of your skull.

It's a completely different attitude to the most of Europe ( Scandinavia is pretty bad though) and though I have lived here for 19 years I still don't get it.

In France or Italy only losers get drunk and there is a stigma attached to drunkenness. People do drink alcohol but it is enjoyed for its taste and usually as part of a meal and not seen as a condition for enjoyment.

Here every Friday and Saturday night is a long evening of drunken revelry where people compete as to who will drink the most and end up puking in the gutter. You see kids aged 11, 12 already starting on it.

I don't get it and never will. What is so great about drinking to oblivion until you vomit in the gutter ?

The problem is it is "glamourised" as public persona and celebrities also have the same hobby and make it very public. The government is starting to realise exactly how big a problem it is. I realised this 19 years ago on my first visit in about 5 minutes....

People are basically too boring to actually think of anything to do and drinking is just a popular way to blend in with other people. Being a teetotaller like myself can be socially "dangerous" as I will be mocked, derided and excluded from social events. I keep being asked ": "if you don't get drunk, what do you do then ?" .... Well I have a life.

It's pathetic but most of all is driving the UK population on the verge of social collapse.
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Old 12-14-2007, 09:01 AM
 
Location: On My Way Home
294 posts, read 1,031,251 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anarchy View Post
Johannesburg, Moscow, Glasgow

Glasgow? I see you didn't mention any cities in England? funny that!
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Old 12-14-2007, 09:06 AM
 
1,267 posts, read 3,143,879 times
Reputation: 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooseketeer View Post
The binge-drinking culture is everywhere in the UK, not just in Scotland. The Brits seem to be unable to enjoy themselves without drinking to excess and there is an expectation when you go out for an evening that you will get smashed out of your skull.

It's a completely different attitude to the most of Europe ( Scandinavia is pretty bad though) and though I have lived here for 19 years I still don't get it.

In France or Italy only losers get drunk and there is a stigma attached to drunkenness. People do drink alcohol but it is enjoyed for its taste and usually as part of a meal and not seen as a condition for enjoyment.

Here every Friday and Saturday night is a long evening of drunken revelry where people compete as to who will drink the most and end up puking in the gutter. You see kids aged 11, 12 already starting on it.

I don't get it and never will. What is so great about drinking to oblivion until you vomit in the gutter ?

The problem is it is "glamourised" as public persona and celebrities also have the same hobby and make it very public. The government is starting to realise exactly how big a problem it is. I realised this 19 years ago on my first visit in about 5 minutes....

People are basically too boring to actually think of anything to do and drinking is just a popular way to blend in with other people. Being a teetotaller like myself can be socially "dangerous" as I will be mocked, derided and excluded from social events. I keep being asked ": "if you don't get drunk, what do you do then ?" .... Well I have a life.

It's pathetic but most of all is driving the UK population on the verge of social collapse.
the UK and scandinavians drink a lot. the weather can be dark and dank in both places. i wonder? also, do you think that the UK's diminished status as a world power might result in some sort of wandering, some sort of lost identity at the national and so individual levels? i wonder about this in the US, as well.

i agree on the media contribution. i know the tabloids are out of control in the UK; and in the US, we see paris hilton, lindsay lohan, and whoever the hiphop puppet or pro athlete of the week might be acting like a dark and twisted high school kid with access to the coke stash of their rich parents that are always out of town, and people aspire to it themselves. "what out of control fun to be a spoiled brat that gets whatever they want whenever they want!" "immediate gratification!" hmm. actually, that sounds like the description of a few countries i've heard of...
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Old 12-14-2007, 09:16 AM
 
Location: Oxford, England
13,036 posts, read 23,211,828 times
Reputation: 20115
Quote:
Originally Posted by hello-world View Post
the UK and scandinavians drink a lot. the weather can be dark and dank in both places. i wonder? also, do you think that the UK's diminished status as a world power might result in some sort of wandering, some sort of lost identity at the national and so individual levels? i wonder about this in the US, as well.

i agree on the media contribution. i know the tabloids are out of control in the UK; and in the US, we see paris hilton, lindsy lohan, and whoever the hiphop puppet or pro athlete of the week might be acting like a dark and twisted high school kid with access to the coke stash of their rich parents that are always out of town, and people aspire to it themselves. "what out of control fun to be a spoiled brat that gets whatever they want whenever they want!" "immediate gratification!" hmm. actually, that sounds like the description of a few countries i've heard of...
I'm sure the weather will play a part in it ( though Brittany , in France, which has pretty much exactly the same climate as the UK does not have that problem) as there isn't the same culture of living outside so to speak and staying indoors is more depressing.

Also a lot of it will be a breakdown in family ( families are still much closer in Southern Europe) and kids are left to roam on their own without supervision. Alcohol is an easy , instant friend and makes you look cool to your mates.

Some of it is due possibly to being more socially "reserved" ( ie not showing your emotions as much) which in turns to internalising things and alcohol then becomes a crutch and a solution as it stops inhibitions and encourages a more aggressive behaviour which can then be excused by "I only did it because I was drunk!" ( which as been used successfully many times here as a means of legal defense).

Some of it is social conditioning, the idea that alcohol = fun and being drunk = cool.

When all around you are doing it, praising it and making it sound like a great activity it is probably quite difficult as a kid to go against it.

Some of it is due to the fact that people are unable to communicate to each other any more and don't know what to do in a social situation. Let's face it most people don't have to think at the week-ends about what to do , as the obvious choice is easy and open to them.

Unfortunately it has now reached such proportions as to be a real social issue, anti-social behaviour has increased, kids are now starting to show signs of liver damage at an early age and adults are drinking themselves into oblivion. And let's not forget women who get raped whilst so drunk as to be unconscious and those who get pregnant too because they were too drunk to take precautions. Unwanted pregnancies are at an all time high here and alcohol is cited as the primary cause. Then there is the vandalism, fighting in the streets and 2/3rd of hospital admissions at the week-end which are drink related.


A real mess and I can't say I would know what to do about it as a government as it is so widespread. It needs a complete societal change of attitudes and I'm not sure how you accomplish that...

I have to work on my social life, others just go to the pub...
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Old 12-14-2007, 09:28 AM
 
Location: England
578 posts, read 2,964,978 times
Reputation: 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by hello-world View Post
thanks. each of these is the same article! have you seen anything that talks about any possible "why's"?

i can see how alcoholism might be part of it, though it could be good to see some sort of causal study or something. and, why is alcoholism such an issue in scotland? economics? weather? is the IRA active in scotland? i admit that the scotch whiskey is pretty good.

i agree with some of the posts concerning disparity in cultures resulting in violence. i think the media has a lot to do with it in the US, personally. i think it shows people what they don't have and maybe can't have, while desensitizing to or even glamorizing violence. though, in america, i feel that violence has been part and parcel from it's inception. sort of, "if you want it, you can take it with force" kinds of things pretty much since columbus (or even before amongst aboriginal people of the americas) on down through the wars. it doesn't help to displace a bunch of people and use them for your own gain - those scars don't just go away "out of sight out of mind". have there been these kinds of factors in the UK history? protestant revolution? danish bullying a millenium ago?
Alcohol is part of the British culture so is the yob culture add both together it just makes things worse, guns are big in the US knifes are big in the UK both as deadly when in the wrong hands and its not uncommon to hear people stabbed or shot outside a bar or club, also many other factors such as segregation which is currently a major issue and unemployment. I believe that a lot of it is to do with the slack of laws and anyone committing any violent act know they will get away with it or let off lightly.

The drink culture on a Friday night in my local town I see more drunks, people puking, women sprawled all over the floor showing all than what I have in Miami or LA on a Friday night.

Gangs of teens hanging on street corners at night scares many people not to go out at night especially older people as they will be mocked, called names or even worse. Every so often in the newspaper a "Have ago Hero" is reported dead after confronting yobs for causing a nuisance, police are supposed to break gangs up bigger than 4 or around that and send them on their way but they never do.

I posted up some articles about the yob culture in another thread I try to find the links, anyway these are some of the main factors.

Forgot to add, maybe the weather does add to the problems I dont know but its very depressing weather especially in the Winter when it gets light late and dark early maybe something a bottle of Scotch can help with.

Last edited by Anarchy; 12-14-2007 at 09:43 AM..
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