Western/Northern Europe vs. Canada for lower income (real estate market, mortgages)
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I think it's quite normal for cities with a significant decline in population. The population of Chemnitz for example declines from about 300k to 240k, and Gelsenkirchen from 300k to 260k in the last 20 years. But the housing don't disappear. They tear down a lot of these old ugly socialist "plattenbau" buildings. But there are still much more apartments available than needed. That leads to low rents. It's better for a landlord to get 200 Euro for an apartment instead of getting 0 Euro when he demand to much for an apartment. I don't understand why rents in cities like Detroit, Camden, East St-Louis decrease not to a very low level. There are a lot of empty residential buildings. It would be smart to demand lower rents to attract more people from other places. But I guess it's a very naiv view.
Property prices in decayed city neighborhoods are near zero. The family of a friend of a friend bought a house in Pittsburgh for $5000. Rents are not because landlords are responsible for maintenance and property taxes. Old buildings require an expense to keep in shape. And if a house or apartment building has been left vacant for a few decades, expensive repairs are often required. With low demand and low incomes, rents can't cover costs. Back in the 70s, landlords in the South Bronx found it more profitable to burn their building and collect insurance money (much of it defrauding Llyod's of London) rather then keep them as rentals. An alternative NYC paper declared that in housing, the final stage of capitalism is arson. Eventually, city money was use to salvage the re-habbable abandoned buildings in the 80s and 90s.
Holyoke, MA near me has scattered abandonment. On the street you can see abandoned housing and house and apartments that look in good shape. There wasn't demand to do good upkeep on all the buildings. Today, the rents would be decent enough to cover cost for this building:
You do realize that the rise in cost for housing and increased debt load has led to Canadians now having the richest middle class in the world against large nations - including Germany (article below).. Sure it is pricey to buy that house in places like Toronto and Vancouver, but the cost of the debt of that heavy mortgage is worth it because the rise in value of the real estate over time is far greater than the cost of the real estate - including interest charges to finance the place so your net worth goes way up.
The richest middle class article was based on income not wealth, so the value of owned homes don't figure into the ranking.
That is crazy! what is the catch (if there is one)?
Idk about Canada but in America its pretty rare to find apartment that cheap. it sure seems easier to live a minimalist lifestyle in Germany.
I met a German who lived in Bremen and said he rented a 400/month (dollars? euros? either way he found housing cheaper there than right around here at least near the local state university where he was doing an exchange study) apartment near the center of the city. No car and didn't need one. Bremen looks like a nice on streetview, he liked it. And not a poor unlike some of the other cheap German areas mentioned.
As to the OP, I'd guess if you don't want a big or even just a detached house, and ok without a car, and just care about functional housing and transportation northern/western Europe is better on a low income. Plus government benefits are better.
Yes, that's true. I don't know how many apartments have a kitchen and how many don't. Perhaps 70-80% don't have a kitchen.
One reason is, that Germans move by far not that often like Americans or Canadians. The average german moves 3.4 times in his life. 11% of the population never leave the house in which they grew up. So people want their homes as individual as possible.
When a house is build, they don't build a kitchen in it. If you build or buy a new house, after the construction is complete you will buy a kitchen from a kitchen store and some craftsmen will build your very individual kitchen in your house. The design of a german kitchen differs strongly from that in the U.S. It's more the contemporary design.
A plain and very small kitchen cost a few hundred Euro, a large and high end kitchen cost up to 100,000 Euro or even more. The average price is 6,000 Euro. If people move, some or most take their kitchen with them to their new apartment. But some leave the kitchen in their old apartment and sell it to the new tenant. The kitchen is for most germans a very individual thing and a lot of people wouldn't feel well if the kitchen was already used by other people.
I can understand that it is very annoying for people from other countries when they get an apartment and realize that their is no kitchen in it. I find that annoying, too. But on the other side, I think german kitchens are nicer, because normally all appliances are blinded with the same material as the cabinets. The kitchens are much smaller, so the manufacturers have introduced some nice storage features. Germans are very proud about their kitchens. The kitchen is mostly seen as the heart of the home.
If buying or renting a house or rent a large apartment than I think it's a good idea to have a very individual kitchen. But in small apartments? I think it would be better to leave the kitchen in the apartment and no one get in a hustle to buy a new one. There is not even a single lamp in an apartment. Nothing. Sometimes, people take even their laminate floor with them. That's very stupid in Germany. At least for smaller apartments.
People in Germany normally don't buy a house. They assign an architect and a construction company to build a very individual home. The people will get old in this house and will bequeath it to their children. Normally people never will sell their house that they have build.
The no kitchen thing is not unique to Germany as you probably know, it's common in The Netherlands and Italy for example.
Germany does make some great kitchens, but don't think that people don't have very modern kitchens in Canada. Certainly some people have older kitchens, but many change their kitchens. In fact my kitchen which is 15 years old is going to be totally changed this year…I'm guessing the cost to be around $40,000 CDN. It will be as modern as any kitchen out there. Here is a good German kitchen company in Vancouver. I think though they will be too expensive for me !
The no kitchen thing is not unique to Germany as you probably know, it's common in The Netherlands and Italy for example.
I never stated that this is unique to Germany.
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Germany does make some great kitchens, but don't think that people don't have very modern kitchens in Canada. Certainly some people have older kitchens, but many change their kitchens.
I already know this. Many german expats in the U.S. drive to Canada, because of the broader range of more contemporary designed kitchens, at least that was the case 10 years ago. I don't know how it is today. I am really not surprised that there is a german kitchen company in Vancouver. The seat of our branch in North America is also in Vancouver.
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the trouble with streetview is that is a snapshot on a particular day. It can give you an idea of the layout of a city but not whether or not that city " has a soul ". The only way to know a place is to go there. You might be surprised how different it can be in reality.
Until today I feel the impressions from streetview very compatible to the reality I experienced in all places I have visit so far. And I have visit a lot of very different countries and places. Btw it seems that a lot of your compatriots think exactly the same about London (ON).
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The issue i had with your posts is that they came off as arrogant.
LOL, strange, I think exactly the same about your posts
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I have met many europeans who have had no idea about canada and have tried to tell me what canada is like and why they would never visit. In every circumstance their information was wrong. Take your former view that toronto had snow all year long when it is known for it's hot and humid summers.
Also very strange, because Canada is at least for every European I know, one of the country with the highest reputation in the world. Most people would be very happy to visit Canada. What's the problem to think that there is a lot of snow in Toronto? The first thougth people from North America have when thinking about Northern Europe is probably cold.
So in small apartments a kitchen is shared with other tenants? Or I am following you incorrectly.
No, I have it badly explained. If you rent an apartment and have your own kitchen installed. And you move to an other place, than you have the option to take your old kitchen to your new apartment or you can leave it behind in your old apartment. Maybe you can sell it for a few hundred Euros to the new tenant. When the new tenant dont want your old kitchen than you have to remove your kitchen out of the old apartment.
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Property prices in decayed city neighborhoods are near zero. The family of a friend of a friend bought a house in Pittsburgh for $5000.
I have seen such prices at zillow, very interesting. I am sure that many Germans would like to buy such a property and build a cheap house on it or park a mobile home on the plot. A building plot in the city of Düsseldorf cost about 475 Euro/m². The cheapest building land in the administrative region Düsseldorf cost about 90 Euro/m², that's in the rural parts. Vacant building land nearly doesn't exist. Such land will be quickly built-up.
Another reason why apartment rents in Germany are relatively cheap is the fact that almost every mayor city (Pop>100k) own a lot of apartments. For example the City of Chemnitz own 25,000 apartments, that's probably 25% of all housing units in the city. There are also a lot of "Wohnungsbaugenossenschaften" housing cooperative that offer reasonable housing to their members. At the moment their is a run on cooperative memberships because they offer a rendite of 4%.
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Interesting. There are cultural differences I wouldn't have thought of.
It looks like that the Germans are the most immobile people in the western world. In the city of Duisburg (pop about 500k, steel making center of Germany) the unemployment rate is 13.7%. 50km north of the Ruhr Area is the Münsterland, very beautiful and very low unemployment of about 4%. But the jobless people from Duisburg don't move to this area, because they don't want to leave their habitat. It's just 50km but the people from the Ruhr area and the Münsterland are so different. The people in the Münsterland are extremely rooted in the soil, most people of the unemployed from the Ruhr area don't will fit in there.
Many people helped by the construction of their own house. At least in the more rural areas that is very common. There is a strong affiliation to the own home. The people spend a lot of time at gardending or other makeovers. For two decades I felt that so "spießig" stuffy, suburban. Today I like it strongly.
I have seen such prices at zillow, very interesting. I am sure that many Germans would like to buy such a property and build a cheap house on it or park a mobile home on the plot. A building plot in the city of Düsseldorf cost about 475 Euro/m². The cheapest building land in the administrative region Düsseldorf cost about 90 Euro/m², that's in the rural parts. Vacant building land nearly doesn't exist. Such land will be quickly built-up.
Hmm. Maybe I explained that badly. It's not vacant land that's $5000, it has a house on it and the house + land is worth $5000. Of course, $5000 is less than the materials the house is made of is worth. But demand is so low, the price is below that.
I think another US-German difference is outside cities, there's less restrictions on building on empty land. There's often few restrictions on buildings houses outside a built up area.
If you read it again you will notice that I said " AS YOU PROBABLY KNOW ". Which means that I never said that you said it WAS unique.
I already know this. Many german expats in the U.S. drive to Canada, because of the broader range of more contemporary designed kitchens, at least that was the case 10 years ago. I don't know how it is today. I am really not surprised that there is a german kitchen company in Vancouver. The seat of our branch in North America is also in Vancouver.
Until today I feel the impressions from streetview very compatible to the reality I experienced in all places I have visit so far. And I have visit a lot of very different countries and places. Btw it seems that a lot of your compatriots think exactly the same about London (ON).
LOL, strange, I think exactly the same about your posts
LOL. YIKES !! Maybe we are the same type of person !!!
Also very strange, because Canada is at least for every European I know, one of the country with the highest reputation in the world. Most people would be very happy to visit Canada. What's the problem to think that there is a lot of snow in Toronto? The first thougth people from North America have when thinking about Northern Europe is probably cold.
Not in my experience. Most Europeans I've met want to visit the U.S. and dismiss Canada as a first choice. It took me 8 years of asking some friends to come visit because they said " they didn't like to rough it " meaning that they thought I was living in a cabin, in the woods, with bears and snow. However I do know that Germans seem to want that experience of wilderness in Canada more than say Italians.
Hmm. Maybe I explained that badly. It's not vacant land that's $5000, it has a house on it and the house + land is worth $5000. Of course, $5000 is less than the materials the house is made of is worth. But demand is so low, the price is below that.
And people are allowed to live in those houses? Because some ot them look like that they were in danger of collapsing. In Germany some kind of a stupid authority will probably forbid to live in such a house. There is at the moment a pensioner in the news that have to tear down their own house because it was build in 1939 without a building permission, unbelievable.
I have found at zillow such houses 3-4 km away from downtown Dallas. Most houses in this area are abandoned and in a poor condition. Is it a crime issue, why people don't want to live there? The area could be a wonderful place to live and Dallas-FW is a prosperous metro, I guess. Such building plots near the city center of a comparable european city would be worth at least 500k Euro I guess. When I would walk through this neighborhood, I would probably start to howl.
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I think another US-German difference is outside cities, there's less restrictions on building on empty land. There's often few restrictions on buildings houses outside a built up area.
Yes, it's extremely restricted. You can own huge areas of land outside the cities, but you are normally not allowed to build a house on it. In former times I found such restrictions stupid. Today I found them brilliant. I like the contrasts between the somewhat dense settlements and the unoccupied nature (forests, fields, farmland). Even the most density county in Germany (Kreis Mettmann with 1,172 inhabitants / km²) directly east of Düsseldorf has a lot of large coherent areas of forests, fields and even heather between the settlements.
But in opposite to Canada or the U.S. we sadly nearly don't have areas of pristine nature.
In any case, increasing wages for the middle class and rising real estate values looks to be a good thing for many Canadians.
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However I do know that Germans seem to want that experience of wilderness in Canada more than say Italians.
