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Vancouver and Seattle had roughly similar murder rates in 2011. 1.8 per 100k for Vancouver's metro, 2.1 per 100k for Seattle's metro. By city proper, Seattle was a bit higher (3.3 vs 2.5) than Vancouver.
This is another thing that is unclear about these murder rate statistics. Do they include the entire metro areas of these cities or just the city limits?
For example, the murder rate in the Washington, D.C. metro area (population 5.9 million) is much lower than Washington, D.C. proper (population 640,000).
There is still a high concentration of low income African Americans in Washington, D.C. proper.
It doesn't. For the many poor in the US, crime is the only way out of poverty. And then there is the large middle class sliding down into poverty. Crime rates will probably increase even further in the future.
Hi drro,
I think your statement that for many the only way out of poverty is crime, there are actually quite a few programs to help the poor here in the USA and many chose to drop out of school, not find a job and just live a life of crime. Also the USA middle class is still one of the richest in the world only recently has Canada passed us making the USA number 2, the survey that made the USA second was taken during the height of the recession, many things are immproving here such as crime and unemployment rate(we now have a lower unemployment rate than Canada). Crime is actually at its lowest since 1974 and our murder rate is at its lowest since early 1960s. That's a huge improvement!
This is another thing that is unclear about these murder rate statistics. Do they include the entire metro areas of these cities or just the city limits?
For example, the murder rate in the Washington, D.C. metro area (population 5.9 million) is much lower than Washington, D.C. proper (population 640,000).
There is still a high concentration of low income African Americans in Washington, D.C. proper.
Murders in 2013
City of Seattle: 29
Seattle (city) Population: 635.000
City of Vancouver, BC: 6
Vancouver BC (city) population: 603.500
Other cities with similar population:
City of Boston: 40
Boston (city) population: 636.000
City of Portland, OR: 16
Portland (city) population: 603.000
This is another thing that is unclear about these murder rate statistics. Do they include the entire metro areas of these cities or just the city limits?
Unless they say metro, it's almost always by city limit, at least in the US. If anything because the police department is usually by city. Los Angeles is an exception, I've seen county statistics posted instead at times.
Those are completely different from my 2011 numbers, and Vancouver had fewer murders in 2011 than the previous 6 years, so 2011 was already a low year for Vancouver. The highest murder rate in Vancouver is found in some of its suburbs, though. Surrey had 25 murders in 2013, 15 in 2011. So a rate of 6.3 and 3.8 in 2013 and 2011.
In the early years, you're comparing one of the most violent cities in the country. for DC, 264 in 2002, with a rate of 45.8 per 100k. Highest murder rate of any large city in the US that year.
The numbers are correct in the story, though nothing else. Still lower than the early 90s, when one year reached 80 per 100k, which was also probably the highest in the country.
I think there are a lot of different reasons why the homicide rate is distinctly higher in the US than in most european countries. Poverty is probably one of them, but I don't think that this allone can explain the huge difference. The poverty rates in the U.S. and Germany for example are not that different, at least the official data. Either the data is misleading us or the poverty is somehow different. There are a few million people in Germany, that have really little money do spend, but those people don't get violent. Poverty in Germany seems to be very different from that in the U.S. Perhaps the poor people in Germany don't live that separated from the middle class or the rich, than this is the case in the U.S. Neighborhoods are much more mixed than in the U.S. It is not nice to be poor in Germany, but it is by far not that depressing than it seems to be in the U.S. You can be part of the lower 20% in Germany without your neighbors will recognise it. You aren't stigmatised if you live in an appartement, it's quite normal for most people in Germany. Most people want to live in appartements near the city centers.
One of the biggest differences between the U.S. and Germany is probably how the cities look like. Most US cities have large suburbs, perhaps a little bit boring, but mostly in good shape. But most cities have also an area which looks often extremely awful. Completely run down, ugly. Terrible. When I first saw Roger and me from Michael Moore, I thought, what a leftist crank. Everyone can take such a few shots from a city and make it looks like a slum area. Several times I saw documentaries on german TV about poverty in the U.S. I thought, ok, that's typical for the leftist media in Germany. A couple of years later i used Google Street View to "drive" around in Detroit and other cities. It was a shock, the scenery is so grim. It's depressing. Crumbling streets, broken and overgrown sidewalks, ugly and rusty chain-link fences, a lot of trash in the front yards. Burnt out homes, boarded up windows and so on. Of course that's only a small part of the U.S. But how must that appear to the people that have to live in such areas? How must the kids feel if they grew up in such neighborhoods? On TV they see the other side of the world, the live of the rich. How depressing must that be? I can not imagine that such an living environment will not have serious negative impact on the people who have to live there.
Germany have a lot of ugly cities, but compared to just described areas in the U.S. the cities looks almost like heaven. Almost no run down houses, no broken windows, no ugly fences. Even the worst areas in german cities will be maintained in good shape. Older houses, where no one want to live, will be tear down immediately and replaced by new houses or by a park or something else. Some cities in the Ruhr Area suffers from a declining population. Abandoned buildings have to tear down and replaced mostly by parks.
I think for most European it is hard to understand why most people in the U.S. want to live in the suburbs, often far away from the city center and the areas mostly around downtown will decay. Of course there are a lot of US cities with nice city centers and nice residential areas around downtown. But many larger cities looks terrible around their downtowns: Detroit, St. Louis, Baltimore, Buffalo, Rochester and many more. It's not only a single street, it's often large areas near the city center. Such cities are mostly the cities with the highest crime rates. I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if such run down areas have a negative impact on their residents and that lead to more violent people. Why they don't try to rebuild such areas? I am sure that there are some examples with successfull revitalisation of such city areas, but it's probably not enough.
How about a federal fond for rebuilding the most awful city districts? And much more flowers in the streets. In such a beautiful environment even the most bad guys will probably don't get violent. I think on the long run that would be a good investment, which will pay off, maybe after 2 decades?
What I wrote about Germany is probably true for most western and northern european countries.
Sorry, when it sounds like US bashing. It isn't meant that way. In my opinion every US patriot would have to support a revitalisation of those run down city areas.
Those are completely different from my 2011 numbers, and Vancouver had fewer murders in 2011 than the previous 6 years, so 2011 was already a low year for Vancouver. The highest murder rate in Vancouver is found in some of its suburbs, though. Surrey had 25 murders in 2013, 15 in 2011. So a rate of 6.3 and 3.8 in 2013 and 2011.
I found them on year end news articles. Within the city limits these numbers seems to fluctuates quite a bit. Take the Portland numbers for example, it's the lowest in many, many years. Same for the Vancouver numbers. But I think the metro murder rate for these cities are much more consistent.
I think there are a lot of different reasons why the homicide rate is distinctly higher in the US than in most european countries. Poverty is probably one of them, but I don't think that this allone can explain the huge difference. The poverty rates in the U.S. and Germany for example are not that different, at least the official data. Either the data is misleading us or the poverty is somehow different. There are a few million people in Germany, that have really little money do spend, but those people don't get violent. Poverty in Germany seems to be very different from that in the U.S. Perhaps the poor people in Germany don't live that separated from the middle class or the rich, than this is the case in the U.S. Neighborhoods are much more mixed than in the U.S. It is not nice to be poor in Germany, but it is by far not that depressing than it seems to be in the U.S. You can be part of the lower 20% in Germany without your neighbors will recognise it. You aren't stigmatised if you live in an appartement, it's quite normal for most people in Germany. Most people want to live in appartements near the city centers.
One of the biggest differences between the U.S. and Germany is probably how the cities look like. Most US cities have large suburbs, perhaps a little bit boring, but mostly in good shape. But most cities have also an area which looks often extremely awful. Completely run down, ugly. Terrible. When I first saw Roger and me from Michael Moore, I thought, what a leftist crank. Everyone can take such a few shots from a city and make it looks like a slum area. Several times I saw documentaries on german TV about poverty in the U.S. I thought, ok, that's typical for the leftist media in Germany. A couple of years later i used Google Street View to "drive" around in Detroit and other cities. It was a shock, the scenery is so grim. It's depressing. Crumbling streets, broken and overgrown sidewalks, ugly and rusty chain-link fences, a lot of trash in the front yards. Burnt out homes, boarded up windows and so on. Of course that's only a small part of the U.S. But how must that appear to the people that have to live in such areas? How must the kids feel if they grew up in such neighborhoods? On TV they see the other side of the world, the live of the rich. How depressing must that be? I can not imagine that such an living environment will not have serious negative impact on the people who have to live there.
Germany have a lot of ugly cities, but compared to just described areas in the U.S. the cities looks almost like heaven. Almost no run down houses, no broken windows, no ugly fences. Even the worst areas in german cities will be maintained in good shape. Older houses, where no one want to live, will be tear down immediately and replaced by new houses or by a park or something else. Some cities in the Ruhr Area suffers from a declining population. Abandoned buildings have to tear down and replaced mostly by parks.
I think for most European it is hard to understand why most people in the U.S. want to live in the suburbs, often far away from the city center and the areas mostly around downtown will decay. Of course there are a lot of US cities with nice city centers and nice residential areas around downtown. But many larger cities looks terrible around their downtowns: Detroit, St. Louis, Baltimore, Buffalo, Rochester and many more. It's not only a single street, it's often large areas near the city center. Such cities are mostly the cities with the highest crime rates. I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if such run down areas have a negative impact on their residents and that lead to more violent people. Why they don't try to rebuild such areas? I am sure that there are some examples with successfull revitalisation of such city areas, but it's probably not enough.
How about a federal fond for rebuilding the most awful city districts? And much more flowers in the streets. In such a beautiful environment even the most bad guys will probably don't get violent. I think on the long run that would be a good investment, which will pay off, maybe after 2 decades?
What I wrote about Germany is probably true for most western and northern european countries.
Sorry, when it sounds like US bashing. It isn't meant that way. In my opinion every US patriot would have to support a revitalisation of those run down city areas.
You seem to be a little naive about violent crime statistics in the US. Racial issues in the US are not that easily solved. Although blacks are 12% of the US population they account for 6 times the white homicide rate, and it is largely black on black. The cities you mentioned have very high black populations and huge unemployment. Simply rebuilding the neighborhoods and planting flowers will do nothing. It is a much bigger social problem than you imagine and Germany does not have the same issues to contend with ( a former slave population).
American cities are pretty ghetto and have too many street gangs, go to the suburbs where most people live and notice how more normal and civil the people are, the only bad thing we have going on is an intense cat turf war that we have going on, when i get enough money i'm buying a Savannah cat to protect my other cats.
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