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Yes, the current administration goes away but the damage done remains for a long time. When we left several years ago it seemed like a looong way away before the next election. It wasn't my only reason for leaving the country.
Location: Chi-Town soon to be NYC and eventually Ireland
291 posts, read 1,075,290 times
Reputation: 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by dullnboring
I think Bush has a lot to do with it.
I think it was the RE-election that really knocked a lot of people's faith in this country down a few pegs, much moreso than the first election. With the first election, we could say "oh, he didn't REALLY win it" or say that "well, no one knew what we were in for with him at the time." It was just a sense of disbelief that even after all he'd done, knowing all about him that we did (really, he hasn't been behaving at all differently now than he was before the election which is why I don't understand why just NOW people are waking up and angry), a solid majority of the people in this country (or at least of eligible voters who showed up) STILL voted to keep him in office. I can angrily shout about how I didn't vote for him and how no one else I know did, and try to tell my foreign friends that Americans aren't as (insert negative adjective here) as they think, only to be met again with the uncomfortable reality that the OTHER side is in the majority. I can no longer pretend that the 2000 election was a fluke or that THESE people don't exist or speak for the majority of Americans because unfortunately they do; and realizing and confronting that has just honestly changed my own opinion of Americans as a whole and has led me to seriously question virtually every aspect of life in America and the values of this country.
It almost doesn't even matter at this point to me what happens in the future. Maybe we'll bounce back in some respects; maybe electing Bush's polar opposite, but whatever the case may be, I feel like I've almost permanently soured on a lot of things in this country, and that my patriotism has been shattered. This isn't the country that I knew growing up and I don't feel that I will ever regain the faith I lost in this country. Maybe that's a good thing in that maybe I was too blindly patriotic beforehand, but whatever the case may be, let's just say I'm really dejected at the state of many things (certainly not everything) in my country nowadays. I had always wanted to live abroad, for at least a few years just to experience life in another country, but I never thought I'd actually attempt to legally emigrate to another country, to seriously consider the possibility of starting up a new life abroad, but it IS something that I have begun to think about in the past few years; and I know that I'm not alone in that. You rarely ever heard of Americans thinking about emigrating in the past and now more and more Americans are. I'm not pointing the finger squarely at Bush for that. I think with increased foreign travel, globalization and the availability of the internet, Americans are doing their own research and saying "hmmm, but it's so much cheaper in Costa Rica" or "wow, look at the health care system in France" or "look at all the vacation time they get in Switzerland" or whatever the case may be, but the fact is that a lot of Americans are opening their eyes to the world and really turning a lens on themselves and realizing that just perhaps the U.S. isn't the greatest country on Earth as we're taught to believe, and perhaps just because we're born here, doesn't mean that we have to stay here.
With all that said, I don't believe that there are really large numbers of Americans seeking to permanently move abroad. The pace has definitely increased, but it's still a fairly small portion of the pie. Most people who don't like one place in the U.S. will just move to another place in the U.S., and most people who move to someplace abroad, are doing so for the experience and the exoticism of it, and find themselves returning after a few years. I personally feel that it would be very difficult for me to consciously decide to make a new country my permanent home, to give up my American citizenship and so forth. However, I do think there's been a change in the mentality of a lot of Americans who are now looking at things on a global scale as opposed to a national one, and no longer feeling that they just have to deal with certain aspects of American life. I don't think that these people who leave are abandoning America. Many of the fundamental aspects of what once represented the glory of America have changed. It's not so much people abandoning America, so much as "America" has abadoned them.
Very well said. I don't *hate* this country, and I certainly realize that I was fortunate to have been born here as compared to certain other countries out there.
That said, it irks me terribly when I hear people mindlessly repeat the old "The US is the best country on earth" mantra. I always have to ask them, "By what objective measure??" I mean, I've done my share of research and have yet to find even *one single measure* that puts us at number 1. Not a single one! Health care- nope. Education- nope. Infant mortality-nope. Family values- nope. Quality of life- nope. Happiness level of its citizens- nope. I could go on and on. So, while the US is not the worst out there, it is most certainly not the best either.
My BF and I will be leaving as soon as my Irish citizenship comes through. I've said over and over again that I simply will not have children here. Won't do it. Might we find that life overseas isn't perfect? Sure. But we're not looking for perfection, we're looking for an improvement. Anyone who thinks that Utopia exists is in for a real nasty surprise, but exploring options and trying to think critically about what will best serve your current and future interests is nothing new. People have been doing it since the dawn of time.
It also irks me when people say, "if the US is so bad, why does everyone want to come here?" Simply put, they *don't* all want to come here! I have met loads of Mexicans, Somalis, and former Soviet Block immigrants, but their presence in this country has more to do with proximity (as is the case with Mexico) and the relative ease of our citizenship process compared to other countries. I'm not saying they don't exist, but I've met only a *very* small handful of people who came from European countries with the intention of staying here. Most of the Europeans that I've met are studying abroad or else broadening their horizons by living temporarily in the US. They talk openly and enthusiastically about returning "home" when the time comes.
Now neither my BF nor I are seriously considering renouncing our US citizenship. We will be eligible for dual-citizenship, so we will be leaving the door open in case we really dislike living abroad. But we're young, we don't yet have a family, and we are not really entrenched here such that leaving will be too traumatic.
As for the fact that we have an election coming up soon, my feeling is that even if the right side (IMO of course) wins, the changes will be incredibly modest if they come at all. It will be too little, too late, and for too few. Of course I will vote, as I have in every election since I was legally permitted to, but I will be honest and say I feel no real personal investment in the outcome, since I have no intention of being in this country for the duration of the next term anyway.
dullnboring made some very good points to which I can agree. Bush can't be blamed for the state of things, but I certainly think that the Bush years escalated many situations that have been in the making since decades.
I grew up in the US, but also lived in Europe for more than 18 years. Upon my return (in 1995) I noticed that much had changed. America has become a dog-eat-dog rat race, everybody for him/herself type of society. It's a furious pace, like a stampede of wild, panicked animals. Anyone who falls down in this mad rush, merely gets trampled upon.
I was very curious, so several months ago I started a thread about the quality of life. Not many responded, which only affirmed my belief that quality of life is not something this society values. While living in Europe I very much appreciated the 5 weeks annual vacation and healthcare.
Within 2-3 years I am also planning to relocate back to Europe (Germany) permanently. I know the language, the geography, the customs, and have several friends there.
I would recommend trying to move to a different State first. I've seen people move from the NY region to North Carolina and rush back because they couldn't stand the culture shock, how on earth could they deal with moving abroad?
Hmmm, I don't know that I'd compare anything in North Carolina to living abroad....in any country.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Style
My opinion is, America is a very insular place. The average American can't even point to most countries if they were given a map.
I would bet the average American couldn't identify all 50 states if given a map. Not because Americans are inherently dumb, but because we have such a poor educational system here.
I'm American, and proud to be so, but I do have say that there are other countries that I'd prefer to live in. Not for political reasons, but because I like the lifestyles better. (I grew up in Europe, and moved back to the states when I was in middle school, and have never gotten over the culture shock of the U.S.)
Yes, the current administration goes away but the damage done remains for a long time. When we left several years ago it seemed like a looong way away before the next election. It wasn't my only reason for leaving the country.
Heard it all before; I'm an ex-expat myself. My reasons for leaving were stupid. Most peoples' are.
My BF and I will be leaving as soon as my Irish citizenship comes through. I've said over and over again that I simply will not have children here. Won't do it. Might we find that life overseas isn't perfect? Sure. But we're not looking for perfection, we're looking for an improvement. Anyone who thinks that Utopia exists is in for a real nasty surprise, but exploring options and trying to think critically about what will best serve your current and future interests is nothing new. People have been doing it since the dawn of time.
I bet $100 you move back within five years of leaving.
Quote:
Now neither my BF nor I are seriously considering renouncing our US citizenship. We will be eligible for dual-citizenship, so we will be leaving the door open in case we really dislike living abroad. But we're young, we don't yet have a family, and we are not really entrenched here such that leaving will be too traumatic.
Oh christ, give me a break. Renounce your citizenship? That's the adult left-wing equivalent of telling your parents you hate them, then stomping up the stairs and slamming the door. Honestly.
You should never...and I repeat....NEVER do something that stupid. Sure, you'll have to keep filing your 1040s with the IRS every year (required of every US citizen no matter where they live) but if you change your mind later on (which you probably will, most do) you will not have screwed yourself completely. I have known so many Americans who have made the move abroad and changed their minds once over there that I can't help but assume that the same thing will happen in your case.
Location: Chi-Town soon to be NYC and eventually Ireland
291 posts, read 1,075,290 times
Reputation: 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeDallasite
I bet $100 you move back within five years of leaving.
Oh christ, give me a break. Renounce your citizenship? That's the adult left-wing equivalent of telling your parents you hate them, then stomping up the stairs and slamming the door. Honestly.
You should never...and I repeat....NEVER do something that stupid. Sure, you'll have to keep filing your 1040s with the IRS every year (required of every US citizen no matter where they live) but if you change your mind later on (which you probably will, most do) you will not have screwed yourself completely. I have known so many Americans who have made the move abroad and changed their minds once over there that I can't help but assume that the same thing will happen in your case.
Uh. It appears that you misread my post. Please go back and reread. Thanks.
With all that said, I don't believe that there are really large numbers of AIt's not so much people abandoning America, so much as "America" has abadoned them.
I think the only thing I would add is, for me, the disappointment in seeing my fellow Americans so mindlessly terrified. SO easy to scare into voting for this creature. I had always, unquestioningly, believed that Americans were brave!
Uh. It appears that you misread my post. Please go back and reread. Thanks.
No, I read it just fine. I'm just heading you off at the pass. The fact that you'd even mention renouncing your citizenship and say that you're not "seriously" considering it means that you have actually thought about it. It's an insanely stupid thing to do.
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