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Is it my understanding that Australians (esp. in the past) have had a covenantal dimension to their society that is always present in a new society founded from scratch (including mateship amongst their equals - namely, those of British descent - but also closed-minded attitudes towards Aborigines and towards non-British/non-European immigration)? (In this respect, is it sort of like with the Afrikaners, who have had a real covenantal dimension, what with the Dutch Reformed Church, solidarity and tight-knit communities amongst themselves, closed-mindedness towards non-whites, etc.?)
Is it also my understanding that white Anglo South Africans have been different from Australians and North Americans in that they lived mainly in cities like Cape Town and not as much in the countryside, looked towards England in many respects, and had dreams of returning to England with wealth and honour (with South Africa being a means to an end, rather than an end in itself like with the Afrikaners)?
(Much of the wording above was taken from Daniel J. Elazar's book Jewish Communities in Frontier Societies, which discusses Jewish communities in Argentina, South Africa, and Australia, and the way these countries' general backgrounds have influenced the development of these Jewish communities.)
I guess that Anglo Canadians were somewhere in between the two above extremes, in that they - especially the Loyalists - were on the one hand colonizing what had been French territory (rather than virgin territory like Australia) but on the other hand they lived on the land (esp. those areas not already settled by the French) as well as in cities?
I'm not sure what question your trying to ask if you are trying to ask a question at all, but one thing you can't underestimate is the impact of our convict history, unlike Canadians (or Americans) Australians didn't even choose to exist but here we are anyway...
I don't think the Anglo-Canadian (Loyalist, to be exact) experience was anything like that of the Anglo Australians, nor the Anglo-South Africans. I'm not Anglo except that English is my mother tongue, but here's my view:
In the Maritime provinces at least, the Loyalists were a very separate group from the Scots settlers (mostly poor and from the Scottish highlands) and the Irish. There were some Loyalist farmers, but mostly they settled in towns and cities and were the politicians, merchant class or mill owners. They were refugees, and gained much of their identity from being subjects of the British crown. They saw themselves as very different from Anglo Americans, and they were justified in their outlook. They were very much the "establishment" in Canada, although the Scots were not long in joining them.
The proportion of the population descended from the Loyalists has fallen so drastically since the 1800s. I know very few people who fit that definition today. And half of them have married into other ethnic groups, so their kids have mixed ancestry and cultural influences. A lot of them are simply middle class today.
Is it my understanding that Australians (esp. in the past) have had a covenantal dimension to their society that is always present in a new society founded from scratch (including mateship amongst their equals - namely, those of British descent - but also closed-minded attitudes towards Aborigines and towards non-British/non-European immigration)? (In this respect, is it sort of like with the Afrikaners, who have had a real covenantal dimension, what with the Dutch Reformed Church, solidarity and tight-knit communities amongst themselves, closed-mindedness towards non-whites, etc.?)
Is it also my understanding that white Anglo South Africans have been different from Australians and North Americans in that they lived mainly in cities like Cape Town and not as much in the countryside, looked towards England in many respects, and had dreams of returning to England with wealth and honour (with South Africa being a means to an end, rather than an end in itself like with the Afrikaners)?
(Much of the wording above was taken from Daniel J. Elazar's book Jewish Communities in Frontier Societies, which discusses Jewish communities in Argentina, South Africa, and Australia, and the way these countries' general backgrounds have influenced the development of these Jewish communities.)
I guess that Anglo Canadians were somewhere in between the two above extremes, in that they - especially the Loyalists - were on the one hand colonizing what had been French territory (rather than virgin territory like Australia) but on the other hand they lived on the land (esp. those areas not already settled by the French) as well as in cities?
I'm not sure what you're really trying to say, but is does sound very like you look at these societies through some very simplistic (and in some aspects negative) stereotypes. Certainly the indigenous population of each of these countries were treated very poorly particularly in the early days of settlement. Beyond that, Australia and Canada probably are similar with a couple of major distinctions. There is no equivalent in Australia to Canada's English speaking - Francophone historical divide and its legacy. Also the British settled Australia as a penal colony following the loss of their American colonies as a place to send petty criminals and political prisoners, so it was never 'loyalist' as Canada was (or is?). While there were restrictions on Asian immigration to Australia starting in the late 1800s, these paralleled similar restrictions in place in the US and Canada (see Canada's Chinese Immigration Act, 1885 and Chinese Immigration Act, 1923). Immigration of people from mainland Europe commenced very early on in Australia's history.
Last edited by Richard1098; 06-29-2014 at 04:50 AM..
I'm not sure what you're really trying to say, but is does sound very like you look at these societies through some very simplistic (and in some aspects negative) stereotypes. Certainly the indigenous population of each of these countries were treated very poorly particularly in the early days of settlement. Beyond that, Australia and Canada probably are similar with a couple of major distinctions. There is no equivalent in Australia to Canada's English speaking - Francophone historical divide and its legacy. Also the British settled Australia as a penal colony following the loss of their American colonies as a place to send petty criminals and political prisoners, so it was never 'loyalist' as Canada was (or is?). While there were restrictions on Asian immigration to Australia starting in the late 1800s, these paralleled similar restrictions in place in the US and Canada (see Canada's Chinese Immigration Act, 1885 and Chinese Immigration Act, 1923). Immigration of people from mainland Europe commenced very early on in Australia's history.
If in this thread I look at these societies through sometimes negative stereotypes, I really don't mean to, and I try to be balanced in my viewpoints in general; it's just that in this case, I was deriving these from something I read. And I'm sorry if I made this thread a bit complicated.
Anyway, maybe we could shift the focus a little bit, and ask: Did attitudes differ between Australians and white Anglo South Africans, in that Australians were more committed to the land and the country while the Anglo South Africans were perhaps less so (because they weren't the first European people living in the country)?
Anyway, maybe we could shift the focus a little bit, and ask: Did attitudes differ between Australians and white Anglo South Africans, in that Australians were more committed to the land and the country while the Anglo South Africans were perhaps less so (because they weren't the first European people living in the country)?
I don't know much about South African's relationship to the land, but one of the dominant themes of Australian literature and popular culture of the 1800s and early 1900s was that of the peoples' relationship with the land. Or more precisely, people battling, accepting and ultimately loving a land that is both harsh and at times deadly, but beautiful at the same time.
At times that narrative took on a somewhat romantic tone with works like "Clancy of the Overflow" celebrating the lifestyle of stockmen and drovers, Clancy of The Overflow
Its a style of literature that's certainly foreign to New Zealand and the UK, for example, but I suspect there may be some similarities in Canada and the US.
I'm not sure what you're really trying to say, but is does sound very like you look at these societies through some very simplistic (and in some aspects negative) stereotypes. Certainly the indigenous population of each of these countries were treated very poorly particularly in the early days of settlement. Beyond that, Australia and Canada probably are similar with a couple of major distinctions. There is no equivalent in Australia to Canada's English speaking - Francophone historical divide and its legacy. Also the British settled Australia as a penal colony following the loss of their American colonies as a place to send petty criminals and political prisoners, so it was never 'loyalist' as Canada was (or is?). While there were restrictions on Asian immigration to Australia starting in the late 1800s, these paralleled similar restrictions in place in the US and Canada (see Canada's Chinese Immigration Act, 1885 and Chinese Immigration Act, 1923). Immigration of people from mainland Europe commenced very early on in Australia's history.
But we do have a loyalist Prime Minister right now the liberals are the loyalist party of Australia.
I don't know much about South African's relationship to the land, but one of the dominant themes of Australian literature and popular culture of the 1800s and early 1900s was that of the peoples' relationship with the land. Or more precisely, people battling, accepting and ultimately loving a land that is both harsh and at times deadly, but beautiful at the same time.
At times that narrative took on a somewhat romantic tone with works like "Clancy of the Overflow" celebrating the lifestyle of stockmen and drovers, Clancy of The Overflow
Its a style of literature that's certainly foreign to New Zealand and the UK, for example, but I suspect there may be some similarities in Canada and the US.
Er what? There have been enough poems to fill the British Library about the English love for their land...and how ironic since the European colonists destroyed so much of the natural environment, and Australia has the worst extinction record of any country on earth.
Er what? There have been enough poems to fill the British Library about the English love for their land...and how ironic since the European colonists destroyed so much of the natural environment, and Australia has the worst extinction record of any country on earth.
The British material is very, very different in theme; its all "gosh, what a cute little creek/beautiful rose this is".
Australian authors and poets essentially chronicled and articulated a settler society's growing understanding of and coming to terms with its environment, an environment that alternately teased, disappointed, offered huge rewards, terrified, and if you were unlucky destroyed your best efforts along with yourself and your kin. It then transitioned into a romanticism, where that vast unknown and hostile land could not only destroy you, but could redeem you, and society, as well.
Last edited by Richard1098; 06-29-2014 at 08:38 PM..
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the liberals are the loyalist party of Australia.
