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Anybody who uses the term "stolen land" can't be very intelligent. Since day one, humans have fought over lands, fought battles to establish control of territories. The Native Americans used to do this all the time and so did every single civilization in the history of humanity. Thats why these movements like La Raza, Reconquista and Aztlan are absolutely ridiculous.
I really hope the Mexicans never manage to reconquer this land. I would not want to live in a country that looks like East Los Angeles or El Paso.
From an indigenous standpoint it is "stolen land". There's no denying that. Just as the Arabs stole the land and oppressed the Berbers and the native Egyptians of North Africa. A spade is a spade but at the same time we as people must respect sovereign nations and borders, so I can understand the issues you have with the La Raza and Aztlan organizations.
The real solution is to coexist, establish equality, cooperate to improve crime and economic issues, and in the long term, hopefully lessen the importance of the border. This whole idea that these scary Mexicans are coming to chase us out is so dumb.
How do you coexist with people who don't share the same values?
When my parents immigrated here, they encouraged us to become part of this society, become productive citizens and assimilate the culture. If I have kids in this land, you better believe they will be Americans first.
That is not what most Mexican immigrants want for their children though. They want to maintain their traditions, their language, their customs while taking advantage of all the system has to offer.
Some of the best neighborhoods I have lived in here in Iowa were made up of people who shared the same values regardless of their race.
They all wanted good schools for their children, they had high expectations and were highly educated people. There was very little racial tension in these communities, the schools were great and these are very safe and clean places.
The problems starts when you try to force people who do not share the same values to co-exist, it never works.
How do you coexist with people who don't share the same values?
When my parents immigrated here, they encouraged us to become part of this society, become productive citizens and assimilate the culture. If I have kids in this land, you better believe they will be Americans first.
That is not what most Mexican immigrants want for their children though. They want to maintain their traditions, their language, their customs while taking advantage of all the system has to offer.
.
Utter nonsense! I live 5 miles from the Mexican border. Yes they still speak Spanish, just as there are people here who still speak Tagalog, Cantonese, Vietnamese and Russian. What does that to do with anything? You say they don't want to be part of our society? You say this despite the fact that they commute to work right alongside the rest of us. Run businesses in the typical mom and pop American way? Fight for and have died for the USA in our armed forces? Now I am not easily offended but the mere fact that you're allowed to share this planet with me is something I find highly offensive.
How do you coexist with people who don't share the same values?
When my parents immigrated here, they encouraged us to become part of this society, become productive citizens and assimilate the culture. If I have kids in this land, you better believe they will be Americans first.
That is not what most Mexican immigrants want for their children though. They want to maintain their traditions, their language, their customs while taking advantage of all the system has to offer.
Some of the best neighborhoods I have lived in here in Iowa were made up of people who shared the same values regardless of their race.
They all wanted good schools for their children, they had high expectations and were highly educated people. There was very little racial tension in these communities, the schools were great and these are very safe and clean places.
The problems starts when you try to force people who do not share the same values to co-exist, it never works.
Almost every Mexican I know who has been here for a while is bilingual and/or at least makes an effort to communicate effectively with me. I don't agree that different cultures can't coexist. I (and most non-entitled 'Anglo-Americans') coexist with Mexicans just fine. Everyone screaming that it can't work is just looking for an excuse for their own bigotry, because it already is working. There's just tons of people setting it back.
You missed my point anyway. I'm basically saying that this is Mexican land and American land. Not just American land. I'm not talking geopolitical border type of stuff. I'm talking about the local culture and the people who live here. It's not just new 'immigrants'. There are Mexicans here who's families were here long before any Americans were here. After the Gadsden Purchase they didn't just all disappear (and if they did that would amount to ethnic cleansing/expulsion and nothing just to brush aside). In that sense, all of the "Americans" are the newcomers (of course you can identify both as American and Mexican. And you don't have to pick one over the other), and telling everyone to "act American" is wrong. If you take Tucson for example, it was still a primarily "Mexican" city well after annexation. It wasn't until the railroad divided the city ("Mexican" south and west and "American" east and north; you can see what this has done even today) and the turn of the 20th century that there even started to a huge "Anglo-American" population. And now we have people demanding everyone speak English and "act American" in a place where historically several nations have been repressed by "Americans". How can you not see what is wrong with this? It really is a modern continuation of a colonial past.
I think it's bad to box ourselves in with labels like this. I consider myself "American" only in a cultural sense; I grew up immersed in American culture. I don't care about what my passport says or what border I live in. We need to start viewing identity more loosely. You don't have to choose one over the other. You don't need your entire identity to revolve around 'being American'. It's ridiculous. This is universal too. I don't like Britain blaming things on Pakistanis and Eastern Europeans. I don't like Germany blaming things on Turks. Similarly I don't like America blaming things on Mexicans.
The way you implied that Mexicans hate their kids and don't value education is ridiculous by the way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gentoo
I want to address this whole "stolen" thing. If the US "stole" the land from Mexico, then Mexico stole it from Spain and the USA stole its land from England and all stole if from the Natives. What makes one successor a thief and not another?
Sorry I missed this.
Yes, Mexico has stolen land, Spain has stolen land, England has stolen land, native nations shave stolen land (the Iroquois Confederacy being the most famous example but that's a bit different and in a different region, of course). But we can work past this in a way that partially regains some of what was lost.
The modern UK, with all its racists/xenophobes just like America and some structural issues (see: Scottish referendum as evidence of discontent), is a good example of how you can combine several nations into one without sacrificing their individuality. At least in theory we have four nations as equal parts contributing to one whole. England was founded through colonialism and land stealing but Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland are still allowed to exist in the modern era, have their own languages, etc. I'd like a similar setup in the US. Instead people would rather claim we're all just Americans and nothing else (the UK system needs several changes, I'm not exactly praising it).
The southwest, California, Texas, Utah, and Colorado especially need to not be seen as 'just America'. It's Mexico too, culturally and historically speaking, and in these states, Mexican culture deserves to be protected. All nations should be protected everywhere but I think you get what I mean.
Last edited by carlcockatoo; 11-02-2014 at 10:57 PM..
Almost every Mexican I know who has been here for a while is bilingual and/or at least makes an effort to communicate effectively with me. I don't agree that different cultures can't coexist. I (and most non-entitled 'Anglo-Americans') coexist with Mexicans just fine. Everyone screaming that it can't work is just looking for an excuse for their own bigotry, because it already is working. There's just tons of people setting it back.
You missed my point anyway. I'm basically saying that this is Mexican land and American land. Not just American land. I'm not talking geopolitical border type of stuff. I'm talking about the local culture and the people who live here. It's not just new 'immigrants'. There are Mexicans here who's families were here long before any Americans were here. After the Gadsden Purchase they didn't just all disappear (and if they did that would amount to ethnic cleansing/expulsion and nothing just to brush aside). In that sense, all of the "Americans" are the newcomers (of course you can identify both as American and Mexican. And you don't have to pick one over the other), and telling everyone to "act American" is wrong. If you take Tucson for example, it was still a primarily "Mexican" city well after annexation. It wasn't until the railroad divided the city ("Mexican" south and west and "American" east and north; you can see what this has done even today) and the turn of the 20th century that there even started to a huge "Anglo-American" population. And now we have people demanding everyone speak English and "act American" in a place where historically several nations have been repressed by "Americans". How can you not see what is wrong with this? It really is a modern continuation of a colonial past.
I think it's bad to box ourselves in with labels like this. I consider myself "American" only in a cultural sense; I grew up immersed in American culture. I don't care about what my passport says or what border I live in. We need to start viewing identity more loosely. You don't have to choose one over the other. You don't need your entire identity to revolve around 'being American'. It's ridiculous. This is universal too. I don't like Britain blaming things on Pakistanis and Eastern Europeans. I don't like Germany blaming things on Turks. Similarly I don't like America blaming things on Mexicans.
The way you implied that Mexicans hate their kids and don't value education is ridiculous by the way.
Sorry I missed this.
Yes, Mexico has stolen land, Spain has stolen land, England has stolen land, native nations shave stolen land (the Iroquois Confederacy being the most famous example but that's a bit different and in a different region, of course). But we can work past this in a way that partially regains some of what was lost.
The modern UK, with all its racists/xenophobes just like America and some structural issues (see: Scottish referendum as evidence of discontent), is a good example of how you can combine several nations into one without sacrificing their individuality. At least in theory we have four nations as equal parts contributing to one whole. England was founded through colonialism and land stealing but Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland are still allowed to exist in the modern era, have their own languages, etc. I'd like a similar setup in the US. Instead people would rather claim we're all just Americans and nothing else (the UK system needs several changes, I'm not exactly praising it).
The southwest, California, Texas, Utah, and Colorado especially need to not be seen as 'just America'. It's Mexico too, culturally and historically speaking, and in these states, Mexican culture deserves to be protected. All nations should be protected everywhere but I think you get what I mean.
Ok here's your problem; Mexico had these lands from 1821 to, in California's case, 1846. What is that, 25 years? I gave it 38 years earlier at the maximum. In just 25 years can Mexico claim anything in these lands? Most stuff of Spanish origin was there before Mexico was. the US has had California for 165 years, longer than Mexico and Spain combined. So I ask you, how is California not more American than anything else? Now I am not some flag waving nationalistic American sheep by any means but things are what they are. If we're willing to acknowledge that lands are always taken throughout history, why then must this be a subject of debate?
Ok here's your problem; Mexico had these lands from 1821 to, in California's case, 1846. What is that, 25 years? I gave it 38 years earlier at the maximum. In just 25 years can Mexico claim anything in these lands? Most stuff of Spanish origin was there before Mexico was. the US has had California for 165 years, longer than Mexico and Spain combined. So I ask you, how is California not more American than anything else? Now I am not some flag waving nationalistic American sheep by any means but things are what they are. If we're willing to acknowledge that lands are always taken throughout history, why then must this be a subject of debate?
It shouldn't be. And, you're right. I mean, hell, Germany had like /3 of its land taken away from them in the 1940s by Poland. A lot of northern Poland and Kaliningrad used to be part of Germany for a long time. Southeastern Russia (along the Amur River to Primorsky Krai aka Vladivostok) used to belong to China but became part of Russia in the 1800s. As you insinuate, borders are fluid, they are not static. I mean, even in 2014 the borders of Russia and Ukraine changed
I don't think there are many Mexican immigrants who wish that CA/TX/NM/AZ/etc were part of Mexico again; they are leaving Mexico in hopes of finding a better life. And there are very few Mexican-Americans I know who wish for the US to give those areas back to Mexico, either; some young people go through a phase where they say such things and glorify the idea, but most of them eventually grow out of it. La Raza, etc attract a lot of college-aged people who drop off after some time, but most Mexican-Americans I've known are proud to be Chicano. They join the military, they open businesses, they buy houses, they watch football and basketball and baseball and have barbecues and drive pickups... they love America and roll their eyes at the idea of losing all this they've made for themselves, their families, and their communities because of events that happened over a century ago.
The attitude that immigrants are coming to these states to try to further Latinize them in an attempt to bind them closer to Mexico for an eventual secession is just paranoid, ignorant blather that no one with any critical thinking skills could actually subscribe to. People had the same fears about basically every other ethnic group who ever emigrated to the States... fast forward a generation or two and they're basically all as integrated as anyone else. Look at groups like German-Americans, Italian-Americans, Irish-Americans, Japanese-Americans, Chinese-Americans, etc who were once considered "scourges" upon society and are now simply members of society. Groups like La Raza have basically zero political clout and never will unless they drop their radical nature and are honestly less of a danger to America than the far-right secessionist movements that get lip service in the conservative media.
Ok here's your problem; Mexico had these lands from 1821 to, in California's case, 1846. What is that, 25 years? I gave it 38 years earlier at the maximum. In just 25 years can Mexico claim anything in these lands? Most stuff of Spanish origin was there before Mexico was. the US has had California for 165 years, longer than Mexico and Spain combined. So I ask you, how is California not more American than anything else? Now I am not some flag waving nationalistic American sheep by any means but things are what they are. If we're willing to acknowledge that lands are always taken throughout history, why then must this be a subject of debate?
My point isn't really that California 'isn't American'. It most certainly is. Just because it was only officially part of an independent Mexico for 25 years doesn't mean that is the only "Mexican" history in California. There's tons of "Hispanic" (not necessarily people who identified with Spain) and indigenous history that goes way before 1821. If you want to focus specifically on the Mexica (from which the name Mexico comes from), they were in the southwest thousands of years earlier, though they of course went to central Mexico later. Similar indigenous groups, many of which that blended with Hispanic culture, continued to exist there long before the US. Over time these identities transformed in way that transcends borders. I don't think American history begins 1776, and with Mexico especially it's a bit of a different comparison. Indian history doesn't begin in 1947, etc.
I'm definitely not about to accuse you of being a flag waving nationalist; you've proven yourself to not be that over the course of this thread. The reason this is subject to debate because it's still relevant today. People want to just call it "our past" but the reality is these people never just disappeared. I don't care if America has had all this land for 165 years. Pre-existing nations have existed here for that same amount of time and longer.
The land isn't even the point though. The only reason I bring it up is because 'flag wavers' make it an issue. Because we live in America, we're all supposed to 'act American' which is code name for 'act like a certain type of American and disown everything else'. That's how I got from the original post to this.
You two (I'm referring to you theunbrainwashed. I did read your post ) are saying that borders constantly change. I agree. But I'm also saying that borders ideally shouldn't even matter when it comes to this stuff. Since you brought up Germany, the post-war expulsion of Germans was actually really terrible and I don't just want to brush that aside either. While there are some issues though (discrimination against Eastern Europeans in Western Europe, etc.) Germany and Poland have it much better figured out that we do in the US/Mexico, when looking at the open borders, EU participation, etc.
Of course the US/Mexico border has its own unique circumstances that make it what it is today. But I think here in the southwest we need an environment of cultural exchange rather than cultural dominance (i.e. TS and his/her 'white rights' stuff). At this point it doesn't even matter who was here first; Mexicans have had a long history (in my city longer much longer than America regardless of which government officially 'owned' it for how long, and this is certain) here and don't deserve the mistreatment perpetuated by the widely held beliefs in the OP. Nobody should be discriminated against for their culture, but since TS singled out 'hispanics telling us to go back to Europe' and 'immigrants' (of which Mexicans are the largest group), I've been focusing so much on this example.
Why does the effort by non-whites to attain the privileges, opportunities, advantages, and freedoms that whites have enjoyed for centuries equal "white hate"?
Get the hell out of the way. I see no "white hate", only a fight against whites who are racist.
I remember a lady who did a social experiment where she treated white americans they way white Americans have typical treated minorities (like segregation and denial of rights) and those white americans got pretty upset about it yet never quite made the connection that that's what minorities have had to deal with for decades if not some centuries. Some whites walked out of the room from being so upset. I also believe she did it with British ethnic groups as well and they sort of similarly responded though somewhat more quickly.
I do think there are some minorities who hate white people but usually out of responded of something they've experienced in the past. But those number of "anti-white" are just as small if not smaller than the number of bigoted whites.
I also believe it's just as ignorant to tell whites to "go back to europe" or to tell anyone to go back to someplace that they themselves might not even be from.
Utter nonsense! I live 5 miles from the Mexican border. Yes they still speak Spanish, just as there are people here who still speak Tagalog, Cantonese, Vietnamese and Russian. What does that to do with anything? You say they don't want to be part of our society? You say this despite the fact that they commute to work right alongside the rest of us. Run businesses in the typical mom and pop American way? Fight for and have died for the USA in our armed forces? Now I am not easily offended but the mere fact that you're allowed to share this planet with me is something I find highly offensive.
that's a very typical brazilian right there
here in Europe there are HORDES of illegal Brazilians who come exploit the system as much as they can, many women from there come try to find old men to marry so when the old man dies they can get his money instead of his rightful inheritors and then go back to brazil to waste it on plastic surgery (there are cases like that on the news), there are over 100thousand brazilians living in london alone and most are illegally there.... with all those references behind and they still tell you "oh europe has way too many foreigners, I am so sick of arabs and so on."
I met a couple of brazilians who constantly yapped about arabs invading europe and would make derogatory comments towards the arabic people, just like this brazilian cretin here makes comments towards mexicans, they also would comment on how arabs don't belong here and don't have the same values as us!!! it comes up they're illegally in Europe, living off of the government because of some fake claims that they are gay and they would get killed in brazil if they went back.... it was discovered it's false and no one wanted to kill them in Brazil, they just wanted a free ride and they got it, the point is they are the least indicated to make any negative claim about other people.
I am willing to bet this brazilian guy entered the US illegally and now that he got documents allowing him to stay he talks all this crap.
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) are saying that borders constantly change. I agree. But I'm also saying that borders ideally shouldn't even matter when it comes to this stuff. Since you brought up Germany, the post-war expulsion of Germans was actually really terrible and I don't just want to brush that aside either. While there are some issues though (discrimination against Eastern Europeans in Western Europe, etc.) Germany and Poland have it much better figured out that we do in the US/Mexico, when looking at the open borders, EU participation, etc.