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View Poll Results: Do you prefer downtowns with European architecture or those resembling American ones with skyscraper
European downtowns (and architecture) 115 76.16%
Americanized downtowns (with skyscrapers) 36 23.84%
Voters: 151. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-27-2015, 01:36 PM
 
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I like the look Americanized cities provide....skyscrapers, etc, but I like the feel of European cities on a more human scale, where as American ones are impressive to look at....especially from a distance.
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Old 01-27-2015, 01:37 PM
 
Location: Cambridge, MA/London, UK
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Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
This is not unlike Toronto or Montreal either.. I made a similar point in the Canadian vs Nordic cities thread.. Its good that we clear the air that just because a DT has lots of scrapers - doesn't mean it is devoid of urbanity or ped vibrancy.. A big part of it is that the big 3 Cad cities have plenty of mixed Commercial/residential activity in their Downtowns so they aren't ghost towns after 6pm.. They aren't just a big business magnet for the city but also the cultural hub of it as well.
I think that simply boils down to a good downtown vs a poor downtown. Contrary to popular opinion some cities in the US and Canada actually have very strong downtown cores that folks want to live, work and play in. Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal come to mind in Canada and NYC, SF, Chicago, Boston and Philly come to mind in the US. All of the cities mentioned have their fair share of skyscrapers, some more than others of course.
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Old 01-27-2015, 01:46 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
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Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
This is not unlike Toronto or Montreal either.. I made a similar point in the Canadian vs Nordic cities thread.. Its good that we clear the air that just because a DT has lots of scrapers - doesn't mean it is devoid of urbanity or ped vibrancy.. A big part of it is that the big 3 Cad cities have plenty of mixed Commercial/residential activity in their Downtowns so they aren't ghost towns after 6pm.. They aren't just a big business magnet for the city but also the cultural hub of it as well.
I remember the beginning of the condo boom in Toronto and the first buildings weren't mixed use. In fact a friend who moved to Toronto from Vancouver commented on this to me back then. No offence to Toronto, but Vancouver was ahead of the curve in on this.
One of the big players in Toronto is Concord Pacific of Vancouver. They built many of the newer condo's down near the waterfront and some look like they were plucked out of Vancouver and dropped into Toronto.
The major difference seems to be in spacing of the buildings in that area, much wider than in Vancouver and for me, less street friendly.

Other areas of Toronto are better and not so cold looking.

This article is even calling it a trend for 2015. In Vancouver it's not a trend, but just is and has been since the late 1980's when Concord started building on the old Expo 86 site.

Future of development is mixed-use, report | Homes | New Homes & Condos | Toront

I do agree though, that Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver have vibrant downtowns.
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Old 01-27-2015, 01:47 PM
 
Location: Toronto
15,106 posts, read 15,795,941 times
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Originally Posted by edwardsyzzurphands View Post
I think that simply boils down to a good downtown vs a poor downtown. Contrary to popular opinion some cities in the US and Canada actually have very strong downtown cores that folks want to live, work and play in. Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal come to mind in Canada and NYC, SF, Chicago, Boston and Philly come to mind in the US. All of the cities mentioned have their fair share of skyscrapers, some more than others of course.
Do you find in a general sense it is fair to make the observation that Canadian cities by proportion have integrated/fused if you will the DT cores and their CBD with intense residential development more so vs U.S cities? NYC seems to really stand out obviously as being on another level altogether in this fusion.. I guess what i'm getting at is even cities like S.F and Chicago (maybe Boston) at least in my experience the CBD's seem pretty far removed from strong residential cores vs CAD's big 3..

This isn't to say the S.F and Chicago don't have great residential intensity and areas of urbanity but it just seems to be a likkle further afield.. I'm not trying to win for Canada here lol - its just my observation but if you think i'm off fire away
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Old 01-27-2015, 01:57 PM
 
Location: Toronto
15,106 posts, read 15,795,941 times
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Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
I remember the beginning of the condo boom in Toronto and the first buildings weren't mixed use. In fact a friend who moved to Toronto from Vancouver commented on this to me back then. No offence to Toronto, but Vancouver was ahead of the curve in on this.
One of the big players in Toronto is Concord Pacific of Vancouver. They built many of the newer condo's down near the waterfront and some look like they were plucked out of Vancouver and dropped into Toronto.
The major difference seems to be in spacing of the buildings in that area, much wider than in Vancouver and for me, less street friendly.

Other areas of Toronto are better and not so cold looking.

This article is even calling it a trend for 2015. In Vancouver it's not a trend, but just is and has been since the late 1980's when Concord started building on the old Expo 86 site.

Future of development is mixed-use, report | Homes | New Homes & Condos | Toront

I do agree though, that Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver have vibrant downtowns.
Cityplace is a big part of the development along the western lakeshore but the overall condo market in Toronto and the CBD is just massive on so many levels now and is far larger than Cityplace. I would agree with your friend 10 years ago if we were talking just condo's but not today.. Not to mention - Toronto has HUGE swaths of highrise commie block residential apartment buildings in its core that only NYC surpasses in Canamerica (St Jamestown for instance ain't pretty but far and away the highest density residential part of Canada)- plus of course mid and even dense low rise housing in it core that have been there for a looong time lol.. So I guess my point is these places also add to ped and res vibrancy outside of just condo's..

And no offense to Concord but if there is one area in T.O that has been much maligned for condo growth it has been this dev - though things are truly getting better in that area as more retail and park space is added and of course the area is densifying and closing in on liberty villiage plus the CBD so its getting more connected.

Have you heard of Micro Condo's lol - yup because of increasingly limited space in the DT cores of cities like Toronto and Vancouver (not sure if YUL is getting on this bandwagon yet) plus high costs Developers are starting to get into 'micro condo's' lol.....

Good article btw.

Last edited by fusion2; 01-27-2015 at 02:19 PM..
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Old 01-27-2015, 02:01 PM
 
Location: Cambridge, MA/London, UK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Do you find in a general sense it is fair to make the observation that Canadian cities by proportion have integrated/fused if you will the DT cores and their CBD with intense residential development more so vs U.S cities? NYC seems to really stand out obviously as being on another level altogether in this fusion.. I guess what i'm getting at is even cities like S.F and Chicago (maybe Boston) at least in my experience the CBD's seem pretty far removed from strong residential cores vs CAD's big 3..

This isn't to say the S.F and Chicago don't have great residential intensity and areas of urbanity but it just seems to be a likkle further afield.. I'm not trying to win for Canada here lol - its just my observation but if you think i'm off fire away
Proportionally? I would agree, since the list in Canada is strongly at 3 vibrant DT cores and there are so many major metro areas that do not do it well in the US.

NYC as you said is on a level of its own, but I think SF does a good job of combining both as well. Chicago I do see a separation between where people work vs live. Boston I think is more similar to how European cities are laid out, in that there is no one major working area but it is rather spread out. For example if you work in Finance or Law you work in the FiDi and Seaport, if you work in Higher Ed you are all over the city and Cambridge/Somerville, if you work in Medical you are in Longwood, etc, etc....so people live in all these areas as well as work.

So I guess I agree, but there are exceptions of course. I guess the issue is how to we define Downtown? The most vibrant areas of places like SF and Chicago are outside of the working core, but still technically "downtown"
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Old 01-27-2015, 02:08 PM
 
Location: Toronto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardsyzzurphands View Post
Proportionally? I would agree, since the list in Canada is strongly at 3 vibrant DT cores and there are so many major metro areas that do not do it well in the US.

NYC as you said is on a level of its own, but I think SF does a good job of combining both as well. Chicago I do see a separation between where people work vs live. Boston I think is more similar to how European cities are laid out, in that there is no one major working area but it is rather spread out. For example if you work in Finance or Law you work in the FiDi and Seaport, if you work in Higher Ed you are all over the city and Cambridge/Somerville, if you work in Medical you are in Longwood, etc, etc....so people live in all these areas as well as work.

So I guess I agree, but there are exceptions of course. I guess the issue is how to we define Downtown? The most vibrant areas of places like SF and Chicago are outside of the working core, but still technically "downtown"
I concur - a central DT core doesn't have to be the only node of cultural or urban activities so I was really getting more at Residential intensity close to the CBD - in that regard outside NYC I really do see CAD's big 3 as standing out in that integration.

In my mind outside a DT core at least in the Canamerican sense is where intensity be it in high or mid rise form really starts to take a dip dramatically.. In Toronto's case it would be west of Spadina, east of Parliament and north of Bloor and obviously south of lakeshore. It doesn't necessarily mean urbanity takes a tailspin and in many instances actually can start to heat up!
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Old 01-27-2015, 02:19 PM
 
Location: Cambridge, MA/London, UK
3,850 posts, read 5,265,750 times
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Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
I concur - a central DT core doesn't have to be the only node of cultural or urban activities so I was really getting more at Residential intensity close to the CBD - in that regard outside NYC I really do see CAD's big 3 as standing out in that integration.

In my mind outside a DT core at least in the Canamerican sense is where intensity be it in high or mid rise form really starts to take a dip dramatically.. In Toronto's case it would be west of Spadina, east of Parliament and north of Bloor and obviously south of lakeshore. It doesn't necessarily mean urbanity takes a tailspin and in many instances actually can start to heat up!
Agreed. We all know that we hardly ever hang out where we work! When I lived in Toronto I worked at Front and University, and never really had anywhere I loved hanging out there despite being in the core. Similar to other cities as well, the good stuff is outside of that. From my experience that holds true in both N. America and Europe.
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Old 01-27-2015, 02:23 PM
 
Location: Toronto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardsyzzurphands View Post
Agreed. We all know that we hardly ever hang out where we work! When I lived in Toronto I worked at Front and University, and never really had anywhere I loved hanging out there despite being in the core. Similar to other cities as well, the good stuff is outside of that. From my experience that holds true in both N. America and Europe.
Very true - I think the good thing about living in the DT core at least in Canada/U.S is that if you work in the CBD you are close to it but also not too far from the hip and happening nabe's that tend to not be too far away from it..

I do think as time goes by you will see more and more American cities adopting a more urban core residential intensification.
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Old 01-27-2015, 02:38 PM
 
Location: Cambridge, MA/London, UK
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Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Very true - I think the good thing about living in the DT core at least in Canada/U.S is that if you work in the CBD you are close to it but also not too far from the hip and happening nabe's that tend to not be too far away from it..

I do think as time goes by you will see more and more American cities adopting a more urban core residential intensification.
Yup! I used to fall into the trap of thinking that European cities are always better than US/Canadian downtowns, but at the end of the day a good core is a good core no matter where you are. As long as you have decent transit connection or live in a walkable area, there is always something fun to do near by.
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