Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88
If Israel lost all the miliary support of the USA, they would fall easy prey to Islamic countries who might quickly invade them. But then if Israel released all Palestinian territories and withdrew from them and minded its own business behind secure borders, no islamic state would be very interested in invading them.
So the answer is that a peaceful non-aggressive non-expansive non-colonial non-occupying Israel within confined borders could survive very well, probably at a more austere standard of living, even without foreign aid. But the present Israel, that we all know and understand, would not last a day without at least military aid.
So it depends on the character of your hypothetical Israel. If they are the enemy of the people around them, and need to defend themselves, it is their own doing, but need not be necessarily so..
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This wrong in many ways. Israel is one of the few Mid-Eastern states that is not some form of "colonial power". Look at history, the entire area of what became known as the British Mandate of Palestine (the only "Palestine" there ever was) was conquered by Islamists (aka the Ottoman Empire). When it was freed from Islamic conquest at the end of World War I, various allied powers were given responsibility for managing those lands, establishing boundaries for nations and to eventually turn power over. All this was established by the League of Nations.
The British mandate of Palestine included all of Israel (including Gaza and East Israel, aka Judea and Samaria). It also included all of what is now known as Jordan. The 1922 LoN partition plan proposed breaking that mandate into an Islamic ("Arab") section and a Jewish section, along the Jordan River valley. That division DID take place, with the Eastern area becoming known as Trans-Jordan (eventually Jordan). That was 77% of the Mandate of Palestine-given to the Islamists. That left only the Western section, supposedly, as a homeland for the Jewish people and eventually a nation.
That Western section (Eratz Israel) had always had a significant contingent of Jews. That population had been increasing since the late 1800s, with Jews buying up property from Arab landholders, land that was mostly unsettled and barren. The Jews developed that land,draining and reclaiming swamps, planting trees and reclaiming desert areas. Building cities. Eventually the Jewish areas became more prosperous than the surrounding Islamic nations. Many Islamists eventually moved to these Jewish enclaves for job opportunities.
At about the same time, Islamic nations desired conquest of the entire Middle East, with no "Jewish", let alone Christian states. With the rise of the Jewish population in Eratz Israel, came attention from those same nations, who then encouraged even more of their population to immigrate to the region. Most "Arabs" in EI came from Egypt, Jordan and Iraq.
Great Britain expressed support for a Jewish state in 1917 with the Balfour declaration, in part to gain Jewish support during WWI. But shortly after the end of WWI, British support shifted from Jews to Islamists, primarily for access to oil sources in Islamic-majority nations. The Brits stiffed the Jews terribly in the late 30s and 40s. First they severely limited Jewish immigration to EI, even to lands legally purchased by Jewish people. They did so knowing that turning them away would force them back to occupied Europe, eventually into death camps. Needless to say, a great many died.
Prior to WWII, attacks against Jewish individuals and villages by Islamists increased in intensity, with many deaths from their militias. The Jews responded by forming their own militias to counter those attacks, militias that eventually became the IDF with the creation of Israel. During WWII, the British supported multiple Arab states. By the end of the war and after, they had trained many of them, armed them with British weapons, including tanks and aircraft, and provided leadership.
After the war, the UN got involved. Remember that portion of the Mandate of Palestine give to Islamists, and turned into the State of Jordan? That was about 77% of the area of the MoP. Per the LoN mandate, the remaining 23% was supposed to become a Jewish state, right? But no-by this time by British support had essentially "dried up", even after knowing 6 million Jews were exterminated in the Holocaust. The UN looked at that remaining 23% of the BoP, and proposed a division that gave nearly half of that to Islamists (again, on top of the 77% already granted to Islamic Jordan). In spite of this betrayal, the Jews agreed. The Islamists rejected such a plan outright. When that partition plan was passed by 2/3 of the UN, those slivers of the BoP (again, largely legally purchased by Jews) became the nation of Israel in 1948.
Islamists responded by waging a war to exterminate Israeli Jews and eliminate the nation of Israel on the day of it's birth. The armies of 5 Islamic nations invaded and tried to exterminate the Jews. Remember, they were well armed with British weapons, training and leadership. Meanwhile, Israel had small arms, ONE (some claim 3) Sherman tanks and no warplanes. The invasion by those armies drove many from their homes-in particular Islamists who left, and many of whom later fought with those same armies to exterminate the Jews. That displacement became known as the Nakba...and the displaced as Palestinians. While the armies of 5 heavily armed Islamic states invaded and waged war-UN forces, including Great Britain and the US, waged a naval and air blockade to prevent Israel from acquiring weapons to prevent the genocide of the Israeli people. They managed to acquire a limited amount of arms by smuggling them through the blockade. Their air force first acquired 4 fighter aircraft from Czechoslovakia, knockoffs of the BF-109, with far inferior compared to the original. In spite of the limitations in weapons, in spite of being drastically outnumbered, Israel one-defeating all 5 Islamic armies, and eventually expanding her boundaries with land captured during that war.
The next 25 years were largely "rinse and repeat" with 3 more wars waged by Islamic nations to complete the genocide of the Israelis-with the same result. Israel won every single time, prevented the genocide, and captured territory in the process, including the entire Sinai peninsula and East Israel to the Jordan River valley.
Those "Palestinians" displaced in the 1948 war that tried to exterminate Jews? Yeah, they were not invited back to the homes they abandoned. In spite of that, 20% of the population of Israel is Islamic, with the same rights as other Israelis. They are part of the parliament, built Mosques, and voluntarily fight with the IFD (military conscription in Israel only applies to Jews).
For decades the "Palestinians" have launched near daily terror attacks against Israel and waged wars of Genocide (Jihad, specifically the first and 2nd Intifada). These have included hijacking and blowing up aircraft, bombing schools and busses, slashing the throats of elderly Israelis in the streets. A common method was the Islamic smart bomb-aka suicide bombers. They attacked Israeli civilians wherever they gathered. They also kidnapped and butchered Israelis, both civilians and soldiers, whenever they had the opportunity. When Israel built walls to stop the invasion into their territory, the attacks dropped by 90%. Islamic terrorists responded with tens of thousands of rockets aimed at Israeli homes.
All of this violence, brutality and death culminating with the savage, barbaric attack of 10/7. An attack that was the biggest slaughter of Jews since the Holocaust. That slaughtered 1200 people. One where countless innocent people were raped. Where savages cut the breasts off women and shoved knives up their genitals before shooting them. Where families were burned to death in their homes. Where people were beheaded with garden tools. Keep in mind, all this happened on a Jewish holiday, during a ceasefire. And while Israel was providing food, water, power, fuel and medical care to the very people waging war to exterminate her people. The savages took 250 hostages, including Americans (something Biden seems to have forgotten). Many have been brutalized already, while the IDF fights desperately to rescue the remainder.
All this while the UN has promoted and defended the murderers and rapists, and not the victims. While the UNRWA employed 1200 (or more, more are being revealed regularly) Hamas terrorists. While Hamas literally had tunnels and headquarters under UN buildings, with the UN providing electricity. While the UNRWA used Hamas propaganda to teach their students to hate and kill. While the UNRWA provided food and supplies to Hamas and funneled money to them for weapons, including rockets, and constructions of a tunnel network longer than the "tube system" of London.
Israel is a tiny country, with a population of only about 5 million or so Jews. Everyone knows someone slaughtered in terror attacks. They survive by building bunkers (safe rooms) to protect themselves from rocket attacks-safe rooms where many were burned alive on 10/7. They live under a constant threat of a genocide committed in the name of radical Islam.
Lets not forget-the Islamists will accept nothing less than the extermination of Israeli Jews and the elimination of the state of Israel. They have said so time after time, rejecting a "2 state" solution time after time because it allows the existence of Israel. Hamas has put the extermination of Jews and elimination of Israel in their charter. Their leadership promises a "10/7 every week". It's mindboggling that some want Israel to surrender to Hamas, especially while they hold hostages (Israelis, Americans and many others) via a "ceasefire". That some morons actually want to reward the murderers and rapists of 10/7 by giving them their own state. A "2-state" solution died on 10/7, murdered by Hamas. This war must not stop until Hamas is defeated.
But remember, it can end in a day.
1) Hamas surrenders unconditionally
2) Every hostage released
3) Every person involved in the 10/7 atrocity, every rapist, every murder, every butcher, turned over for trials for crimes against humanity. This includes all Hamas leadership and any UNRWA leadership that supported and enabled this.
Pretty simple. Let the hostages go, hold the butchers accountable. That's all it takes. Remember, without 10/7, there would have been no war, and not one death in Gaza. Every death is on the hands of Hamas, no one else.
Now, some ill-informed call Israel an "apartheid" state. The vast majority of the area, and the buildings, of Israel are open to everyone, of all faiths. Now, there are exceptions, where only one religion is allowed. Where all others are banned. Where apartheid is actually practiced. Those areas-are known as mosques.
Islamists refuse to accept the entire existence of the state of Israel. They do so because they are the one tiny sliver of land in the entire Middle East and North Africa that they have been unable to conquer and subjugate. That infuriates them and they see it as a threat, least other conquered peoples get a similar idea. The people of Iran are already resisting the rule of the Islamic radicals.
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