Should I move from Silicon Valley to Zurich or Munich? (appointed, crime)

[mimike]

Should I leave my high-paying Silicon Valley job to find work in Zurich or Munich?

I moved to San Jose from Seattle a few years ago looking for a better life (sunshine, fun things to do, career growth). Now that I've been here for a while, I'm pretty disappointed with the quality of life and continue to look for a better life for me and my family - two young children.

The career growth and income that comes along with being here has been great but I feel like we have nothing to show for it other than an expensive townhouse in a so-so area. Also, can't complain about the weather like I did in Seattle. What I'm disappointed in is that with all the career success, we still can't live a comfortable life - commutes are horrendous, childcare is outrageous, housing is a disaster (million dollar run down shacks in crumby neighborhoods). At least in Seattle, we were comfortable.

We started to consider outside the US for a number of reasons - work life balance, great transportation and city infrastructure, proximity to other countries and all that Europe has to offer, good and affordable childcare and education, safety, etc.

Some other things to consider - both my husband and I have tech jobs. His skills as a software developer are more in demand than my legal skills, so he may have to get a transfer or find a new job first, then I would look for a job while there and I would probably get paid less or even have to take a lower position. Our parents, brothers and sisters are in the US, but our relatives (aunts, uncles, and cousins) are in Europe. While I know another European language, I don't know German, and neither does my husband. Our two children are in kindergarten and second grade.

[adrianf91]

Do you have a European passport? That'd be the first requirement

Also, you should learn German if you really want to live there, not that you can't get by with English, but if you truly want to integrate to the community you have to learn it

Needless to say that if you have a EU passport, it will be easier to get a German citizenship than a Swiss one...On the other hand, IT jobs are paid better in Switzerland

Curiosity: Why you don't like America?

[mimike]

Originally Posted by adrianf91

Do you have a European passport? That'd be the first requirement

Also, you should learn German if you really want to live there, not that you can't get by with English, but if you truly want to integrate to the community you have to learn it

Needless to say that if you have a EU passport, it will be easier to get a German citizenship than a Swiss one...On the other hand, IT jobs are paid better in Switzerland

Curiosity: Why you don't like America?

I have a US and European passport. Also, I started learning German this year but think it will be a while before I know the language well enough.

I never said I don't like America. Rather, I mentioned the reasons I'm considering Europe and those are things I feel are lacking in the area I live in. I would love to live in a clean, safe, walkable city full of energy and fun things to do. Here, I have the option of living in a dirty city full of crime, or a car-dependent, boring suburb.

[Ottawa2011]

You only live once. Take the chance. Give your kids the opportunities that they can only experience through world travel and exposure to other countries. They'll be the better for it. It's not often that parents are in a position to give their kids that exposure to so much, so go for it.

I'd vote for Zurich, because of the stellar reputation of Swiss schools, plus they'd probably get a bit more exposure to Italian and French languages and culture in Switzerland, on top of German fluency. Munich sounds like a wonderful city. But why Bavaria, wouldn't there be more opportunities in your field (and your husband) in Berlin? I'm not familiar with Munich's economy...

[mimike]

Originally Posted by Ottawa2011

You only live once. Take the chance. Give your kids the opportunities that they can only experience through world travel and exposure to other countries. They'll be the better for it. It's not often that parents are in a position to give their kids that exposure to so much, so go for it.

I'd vote for Zurich, because of the stellar reputation of Swiss schools, plus they'd probably get a bit more exposure to Italian and French languages and culture in Switzerland, on top of German fluency. Munich sounds like a wonderful city. But why Bavaria, wouldn't there be more opportunities in your field (and your husband) in Berlin? I'm not familiar with Munich's economy...

I keep reading mixed reports about whether Berlin or Munich is the tech center of Germany. I think either city would be great provided there's a good opportunity there. Google has a presence in both Zurich and Munich. I'd be on a plane in a hot second for an opportunity with any similar caliber company in any major German or Swiss city.

[Ottawa2011]

Originally Posted by mimike

I keep reading mixed reports about whether Berlin or Munich is the tech center of Germany. I think either city would be great provided there's a good opportunity there. Google has a presence in both Zurich and Munich. I'd be on a plane in a hot second for an opportunity with any similar caliber company in any major German or Swiss city.

Well... that's a tough one. But I don't know Munich... So I would campaign hard for Zurich.

I fell in love with Switzerland reading "Heidi" as a girl, so maybe I should give full disclosure.

[picopepec]

Hello "Mimike", here are my pro's and cons about moving to Zurich or Munich:

pro :
- safer cities
- better transportation (no need to drive a lot, compared to Cali)
- clean cities, less pollution
- Welfare State (Uni is cheaper, healthcare as well...), supposing you plan to get the citizenship
- working culture is generally more relax (overtime is less frequent than in US, lot of vacation days...)
- very easy to travel in other European countires (very close to Italy, France, Austria...)
- if you like winter sports, you will love these 2 cities

cons
- expensive cities. San Jose is also expensive, but mostly for housing. While in Zurich (and Munich to a certain extent), everything is more expensive than US
- sorry to be blunt, but Zurich and Munich can be very boring for some people (at least it's my case). California is a leasure paradise compared to these 2 cities
- diversity is much more limited, and you can feel it : some people are openly racist (complaining about foreigners who come to "steal jobs" and "don't speak the language", etc.). While many Americans complain about illegal immigrants (Mexicans people, Chinese...), a lot of Swiss even complain about white-collar people who have a working visa
- language barrier : German is not a language you can learn in 3 months, it's very tough and there are many differences and dialects depending on the regions (example : Germans struggle to communicate with some people in Switzerland)
- weather is not comparable to San jose, it is gloomier, much colder, if you like to go out wearing bermuda shorts the whole year, forget about Switzerland and Germany
- there is a lot of uncertainties regarding the future : economy is not doing super well in Europe, there is this big mess with the terrorist threats and the refugees issue, etc. Silicon Valley seems very far from all these problems

I strongly recommend that you visit these places before taking any decision in a prospection-mode rather than a tourist-mode, because the perspective you will get would be very different

[mimike]

Originally Posted by picopepec

Hello "Mimike", here are my pro's and cons about moving to Zurich or Munich:

pro :
- safer cities
- better transportation (no need to drive a lot, compared to Cali)
- clean cities, less pollution
- Welfare State (Uni is cheaper, healthcare as well...), supposing you plan to get the citizenship
- working culture is generally more relax (overtime is less frequent than in US, lot of vacation days...)
- very easy to travel in other European countires (very close to Italy, France, Austria...)
- if you like winter sports, you will love these 2 cities

cons
- expensive cities. San Jose is also expensive, but mostly for housing. While in Zurich (and Munich to a certain extent), everything is more expensive than US
- sorry to be blunt, but Zurich and Munich can be very boring for some people (at least it's my case). California is a leasure paradise compared to these 2 cities
- diversity is much more limited, and you can feel it : some people are openly racist (complaining about foreigners who come to "steal jobs" and "don't speak the language", etc.). While many Americans complain about illegal immigrants (Mexicans people, Chinese...), a lot of Swiss even complain about white-collar people who have a working visa
- language barrier : German is not a language you can learn in 3 months, it's very tough and there are many differences and dialects depending on the regions (example : Germans struggle to communicate with some people in Switzerland)
- weather is not comparable to San jose, it is gloomier, much colder, if you like to go out wearing bermuda shorts the whole year, forget about Switzerland and Germany
- there is a lot of uncertainties regarding the future : economy is not doing super well in Europe, there is this big mess with the terrorist threats and the refugees issue, etc. Silicon Valley seems very far from all these problems

I strongly recommend that you visit these places before taking any decision in a prospection-mode rather than a tourist-mode, because the perspective you will get would be very different

Hi Picopepec,

You raise some important concerns and I agree my family and I need to thoroughly think this through. At times, I'm just not sure what to do and it leaves me feeling frustrated and exhausted.

Regarding some of the cons -

I'm not sure how boring Zurich and Munich would be to me because I've grown up and lived in the suburbs for the most part. Any city where there are people walking on the streets seems exciting to me. I have two small children, so I'm not looking for an exciting nightlife - just places I like to go in close proximity (shops, restaurants, yoga or dance studios, grocery stores, schools, and outdoor activities, like walking, hiking, mountains, rivers, lakes, etc.)

I am worried about the language barrier, but I'm also motivated to learn. I started learning German at the beginning of this year. I understand some of the basics, but also know that it will take time and effort to get to a level that is sufficient.

I spent over 10 years in Seattle, so I think I will be ok with the weather. I definitely don't like to wear shorts year round - I like to mix it up The weather in San Jose is one of the reasons we came to the area, but after being here a couple of years, I realized that, while I love the sunshine, I also like some variety. Ideal for me would be closer to four seasons with less of the Seattle gloom.

Finally, I agree that the uncertainties regarding the future are a major concern. I want my kids to be safe. Silicon Valley does seem further away from the terrorist threats right now, but I still worry about that here because it can happen here too (9-11, San Bernadino, etc.). What worries me even more is gun crime in the US. I would like to live in a place where I don't have to worry every day about my kids getting shot and killed at school, in a movie theatre, or in a drive-by.

[Rob702]

Originally Posted by mimike

I keep reading mixed reports about whether Berlin or Munich is the tech center of Germany. I think either city would be great provided there's a good opportunity there.

I can't comment on the tech industry but overall Munich's economic situation is 1000x better than Berlin's. Very low unemployment rate, high salaries, lots of white collar jobs. If you happen to find a well paying job in Berlin you'll get much more bang for your buck but I would still prefer Munich over Berlin by a long shot. Frankfurt may be worth a while, too. Very international, well connected to all of Germany and Europe. I wouldn't say that Germany's economy is in a bad shape as one user suggested. Not sure about Switzerland but what from I can tell their economy is fine as well.

If you decide to move to Switzerland be prepared for not understanding a single word they say, even if you've studied German for a while. Their dialects differ a lot from what is taught as standard German. Once they realize you don't understand they usually switch to standard German though.

Also, don't worry about terrorist threats. I highly doubt that the risk of being a victim of such an attack differs between the US and Germany. Switzerland may be slightly safer in this regards, because they're neutral but the greatest risk most of us take almost every day is driving a car. Doesn't stop us from driving.

Finally, I agree that you should visit before making such an important step in your life. If you visit and still like it, try to find a job and then make the move. Perhaps your husband's company or your own has a branch in either Germany or Switzerland? You could try to apply for a transfer, that would be the smoothest option.

Move international without any hesitation! Staying domestic for too long is really boring. (Especially with Isolated North America) San Francisco area is extremely overrated. Although with tons of redeeming features. Despite this, way too expensive(Even much more than NYC)! Can you believe areas of New York City is technically tons more affordable, and quieter than San Francisco! And actually getting a solid guarantee of real summer(87 degree ocean temperature at a sand barrier island near NYC this past August) without risk of wildfires, earthquakes, or nasty ocean current. Ironic NYC is infinitely more relaxing than SF with all of the paid work opportunity available. Including highly diversified away from technology.

Zurich and Munich are all uniquely vibrant. If you want more of a massive city atmosphere, Munich is the one out of these options. Bavaria region of Germany(Where Munich is) is separate feeling character compared to the rest of the country. Architecture, Culture, Lifestyle wise. Lots of abundant castles around. Probably the highest per capita rate of those touristic destination Castles in all of mainland Europe outside of Czech Republic, interior France, or Northern Italy. Munich is in close enough proximity to the Alps just slightly further away than Zurich. They might pay you more in Zurich, yet everything is more affordable around Munich. Are you able to live in each city area country at varying intervals depending on the availability?