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Old 02-17-2017, 10:27 AM
 
Location: United Kingdom
3,147 posts, read 1,979,497 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by easthome View Post
The English spoken in the North of the UK is now much closer to the English spoken in the South, there was a time when people from different parts of the UK (North, South, East & West) couldn't hardly understand each other, as time goes by accents are becoming less distinct. I don't think the English spoken by somebody in the South East has ever been more 'proper' than the English spoken anywhere else on this island. For anybody that wants a general range of English accents they should watch a 1980's program call Auf Weidersein Pet, which was about a group of English builders (from different parts of the UK) working in Germany.


auf wiedersehen pet - Bing video
Really? Plenty of Northerners in my area and they sound distinctively different.

How is this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5KVn6cfNUo

Similar to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-z4C0hTMGzs
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Old 02-17-2017, 11:05 AM
 
Location: Østenfor sol og vestenfor måne
17,916 posts, read 24,361,392 times
Reputation: 39038
Quote:
Originally Posted by easthome View Post
Of course its 'pure' English because they ARE English, I think you fail to see my point. The thing is there is no such thing as 'correct' English however the fact that the English ARE English means that whatever they say is certainly 'pure' English. Who has the right to claim the English they speak is the real 'correct' one? All I will say is that there are small variations of the language not just across different continents or countries but within regions of countries too, and none of the variants are any more 'correct' than any other. Also the variants are small, the English spoken by all English speakers is very very similar, almost identical, we all speak the (almost exact) same language, its only the accents and the way that the words are pronounced that can sometimes make it hard to understand somebody else's English.
You are confusing two concepts:

'English is the language the English speak'

'English is the language with a clear lineage from Anglo-Saxon dialects of West Germanic as it exists in the present'

Under your expressed definition, bolded, the former would hypothetically describe Urdu as 'English' if Urdu completely replaced the current popular language of England.

The latter is a more sound linguistic definition of 'the English language'.

Moreover, the concept of a 'pure' spoken language has no basis in the field of linguistics. One could prescribe a static standard for a language with a set grammar and vocabulary, but no one could faithfully speak it. Languages exist by consensus of comprehension. It is not like a programming language.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool View Post

I think the Irish are the reason Americans don't sound as British.
Even without different vowels, Americans just "sound" more Irish than English people with inflection alone. The English don't raise their vowels much if at all. When they do it happens in areas where the Irish influence is stronger like Northern England. RP speakers just have a more British character to their speech and are definitely more "stiff upper lip" in sound. Notice when Brits imitate Americans their inflections become more pronounced and their voice goes up at the end of sentences which is very common in the US to the point that we aren't even aware we do it.

It's one of the reasons the English sound pretentious to American ears. Their lack of inflection (compared to us) just sounds different and more "upper crust". Heck you'll notice the Boston Brahmin who speak in a contrived Transatlantic accent do this a lot.
I think that while Irish English has some notable influence on American English pronunciation, West Country English of the 17th and 18th centuries and other regional features of British pronunciation of the same era are the dominant source of American English's deviation from the modern British, chiefly Estuary English, standard.

Thus I consider the American English standard of pronunciation and much of its deviant vocabulary to be chiefly British in origin with a significant Irish influence. The distinctly American aspects, those which cannot be associated with a British or Irish source, are not made up of whole cloth either; appearing in regional dialects, there are some Dutch, Italian, and Yiddish influences on vocabulary and pronunciation.
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Old 02-17-2017, 12:17 PM
 
4,792 posts, read 6,057,343 times
Reputation: 2729
Quote:
Originally Posted by ABQConvict View Post
You are confusing two concepts:

'English is the language the English speak'

'English is the language with a clear lineage from Anglo-Saxon dialects of West Germanic as it exists in the present'

Under your expressed definition, bolded, the former would hypothetically describe Urdu as 'English' if Urdu completely replaced the current popular language of England.

The latter is a more sound linguistic definition of 'the English language'.

Moreover, the concept of a 'pure' spoken language has no basis in the field of linguistics. One could prescribe a static standard for a language with a set grammar and vocabulary, but no one could faithfully speak it. Languages exist by consensus of comprehension. It is not like a programming language.




I think that while Irish English has some notable influence on American English pronunciation, West Country English of the 17th and 18th centuries and other regional features of British pronunciation of the same era are the dominant source of American English's deviation from the modern British, chiefly Estuary English, standard.

Thus I consider the American English standard of pronunciation and much of its deviant vocabulary to be chiefly British in origin with a significant Irish influence. The distinctly American aspects, those which cannot be associated with a British or Irish source, are not made up of whole cloth either; appearing in regional dialects, there are some Dutch, Italian, and Yiddish influences on vocabulary and pronunciation.
I said in another thread or here that all American English really is is the old West Country dialect but with more Irish inflection. Like the Irish, Americans just raise the voice more at the end of sentences. This is especially true of Ulster and lots of them settled here. But GenAm phonology is still more English than Irish. Our phonology is mostly English with a bit of Scottish structure (vowel mergers and the like). But honestly if an English person spoke a West Country dialect with an Irish inflection it wouldn't sound to differently from Americans.

Obviously American sub dialects will not follow this rule. The Great Lakes are a good example of not West Country, but East Anglian influence (the long O and U sound being an example) with a more Irish vowel structure in short vowels (some similarities to Northern England with pronunciations of words with the short U are a definitive Great Lakes feature also heard in Ireland). Like the way a Northern English/Northern Irish person says "mum" is identical to the NCVS sound showing a strong Irish influence seeing as the Irish heavily settled the Great Lakes. An isolated Irish remnant exists also in St. Louis where "or" is pronounced "are".

Of course there are uniquely American features like short A tensing which makes certain accents like Philly and Chicago very hard for the English to imitate. These accents have very unique features only heard in this country. But generally your average American will have a sound not very deviated from a rhotic RP with the (almost) same vowel structure.
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Old 02-19-2017, 04:42 AM
 
Location: SE UK
14,820 posts, read 12,026,546 times
Reputation: 9813
Quote:
Originally Posted by GymFanatic View Post
Really? Plenty of Northerners in my area and they sound distinctively different.

How is this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5KVn6cfNUo

Similar to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-z4C0hTMGzs
I didn't say they wouldn't? Try reading my post again.
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Old 02-19-2017, 07:17 PM
 
76 posts, read 56,146 times
Reputation: 84
I've often heard English people say fank you. I don't think they intentionally pronounce it like that. I think that's because they have trouble pronouncing the th sometimes.
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Old 02-19-2017, 07:38 PM
 
Location: United Kingdom
3,147 posts, read 1,979,497 times
Reputation: 731
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graystripe View Post
I've often heard English people say fank you. I don't think they intentionally pronounce it like that. I think that's because they have trouble pronouncing the th sometimes.
That's a working class thing.
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Old 02-19-2017, 08:22 PM
 
4,792 posts, read 6,057,343 times
Reputation: 2729
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graystripe View Post
I've often heard English people say fank you. I don't think they intentionally pronounce it like that. I think that's because they have trouble pronouncing the th sometimes.
That occurs in the Mid-Atlantic, parts of the South, and Black Vernacular English in the US.

th- fronting happens in London, the Midlands, and parts of Northern England.
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