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Exactly. Without the convoys from the UK & the US between 1941 to May 1945, the Russians would have starved to death.
Besides food, the west sent guns, tanks, clothing, boots, and other military equipment to Russia. But for those convoys Russia would have never beaten the Germans.
On the other had without Russia bearing the biggest brunt of the German army in the East the Dday landings wouldn't have been a success either, the point is there was more than one Allied nation that did vital work to defeat Nazi tyranny.
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Originally Posted by easthome
On the other had without Russia bearing the biggest brunt of the German army in the East the Dday landings wouldn't have been a success either, the point is there was more than one Allied nation that did vital work to defeat Nazi tyranny.
It was very much a joint effort by all involved.
The one thing that does amaze me is that there are all these films about Alan Turing, the latest being The Imitation Game.
Whilst I have nothing against Turing, and the truth is that Enigma was indeed an important code and Turing was indeed a brilliant man, but the really important code was the Lorenz Cipher which used the very advanced Tunny Machines.
The Lorenz Cipher was used by Hitler and the Nazi top brass and there were only around 50 such machines, however Bill Tutte broke this more difficult code, and it was this code that Tommy Flowers built his Collosus Computer for and it was the breaking of this code that led Churchill to state that Bletchley had shortened the war by at least two years.
Yet all you ever hear about is Turing, there is no mention of Tutte, no mention of Tommy Flowers indeed in The Imitation Game it's suggested Turing built the Computer all by himself. There's also no mention of Gordon Welchman whose work later went to revolutionise warfare and who was equally as bright.
I know the circumstances of Turings death were mysterious and tragic, however to just go on and on about Turing whilst neglecting to even mention people like Tutte, Flowers and Welchman is just not right.
Yah, the Soviets did most of the bleeding. Of course, Stalin had partnered with Nazi Germany, & Hitler had made no secret that he intended to take Ukraine & USSR territory - killing/displacing the population - to settle Aryans in a greater Eastern Germany. & Stalin purged the military of possible rivals & effective generals, purged the Soviet intel agencies for the same reason, ignored intel that showed Hitler preparing to invade the USSR.
The UK & US could have fought WWII without the USSR - but the war would have lasted longer - another two years? Which means we would have had nukes available to use in Europe. & the US would have had to have raised the 213 US Army divisions (instead of the 90 we actually committed) projected to be needed to fight in Europe (without the USSR). The 90 divisions was a gamble - that we could arm & equip & feed the Allies instead of raising & training & deploying 213 divisions (the factor was time).
See The secret war, 1939 - 1945, Max Hastings, HarperCollins, c2016. Excellent on spies & ciphers.
Finland was under Russian domination from 1899-1905 and 1908-1917. Poland had two rebellions, and partitioned three times.
Come on. How many people did Stalin kill? 30 million of his own citizens? Of which 10 million in the Holodomor? Why on earth do you think that he would've given Finland and Poland a free pass?
Ariete, no one knows for real how many people Stalin *killed.* You see, there is a difference between the death of people that came as a direct result of false accusations ( which happened not because Stalin was personally shooting them, but because there were people locally in charge, who were willing to carry out the murders on massive scale for whatever reason,) death of people in labor camps and those who died as the result of collectivization.
The reason I am breaking it all up for you, is that you wouldn't be painting the picture of one big "killing fest" with no rhyme or reason, because then the killing of "poor Finns" and "poor Poles" with no rhyme or reason would fit into this picture you paint rather nicely.
The truth however is, that those killed as the result of false accusations were the smallest part, and definitely not counted in millions. The rest of victims came as the result of work in the labor camps, where many were sent because of the need of the state for cheap labor/absence of funds on one hand, and need for rapid industrialization on another, and yet another part of victims came as the result of collectivization which, again, came as a necessity for rapid industrialization. Now tell where the potential destruction of poor Finns and poor Poles ( as ethnicities) comes here as a part of a picture?
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"Hey brothers, we've fought for 1000 years, but now join our socialist paradise!"
"Fought" with whom for 1000 years?
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Does that sound like Stalin, who sacrificed even his own son? Hell no.
In fact this is one of the reasons why Russians respect Stalin. In time when average people were losing their sons/daughters in droves, he said that he was not going to "exchange a soldier for a general" ( or whoever it was, since Germans offered an exchange.)
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Even neutral non-Russophobic Finnish historians quite agree that there would've been genocide, and an attempt to wipe out Finland forever. The Baltic States were weak small countries.
They still are - they didn't go anywhere, and neither would have Finland. All this talk about "genocide" is a bogus. Russians do not operate in this mode.
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Poland and Finland were a thorn in Stalin's side. Countries which didn't deserve to exist. It was only when we killed or injured 800,000 Russians when he decided that maybe Finland deserve that right.
No, he decided to wait till he could claim the lands he wanted, but Finland and Poland are surprisingly still around, as much as they "don't deserve to exist" according to you.
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Yes, Stalin was aware of the British-Polish ties, but it didn't stop him from trying (as in Katyn) and sending the Polish intelligentsia to GULAGs. Operation Barbarossa came in the way and stopped his plans.
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No it's the other way around; since he was aware of the upcoming war, he was trying to take the precautionary measures, decapitating Polish army.
Similarly, at Jalta Roosevelt and Churchill were very specific that Finland has to remain on the map, but has to surrender unconditionally. That happened. Churchill demanded that Poland would have the chance to free elections, but that didn't happen. But nevertheless, the window of wiping Poland off completely was closed. Stalin's actions during the Warsaw uprising made it very clear that he didn't care a rat's ass about Poland.
Stalin was looking down at Poland, as much as all Russian upper commandment usually does, historically so. But that doesn't mean that Russians ever ready to wipe Poles from the face of this Earth. Russians prefer to turn people in question in their vassals, that they'd serve their purpose for them, not to outright destroy them. Outright destruction - that's not how Russians usually operate, I repeat it again.
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A lot of back patting and credit taking. Quite an accomplishment for the world to defeat my country.
Quite an accomplishment to defeat the pure evil that was the Nazi War Machine, and there's no back patting just the rememberance of those who worked so trielessy to defeat the Nazi's, or those who risked life and limb or those who made the ulitmate sacrifice.
Last edited by Brave New World; 10-30-2016 at 06:24 AM..
"Fought" where? On Russian territory?
Because that's where the major WWII battles were fought.
If the US & Allies (less the USSR) had to fight in Europe, it would be wherever the Nazi forces were. If that were eastern Europe, then it would be there, if western Europe, then there. From the US POV, it would have been better to employ nuclear weapons (once we had them) on German ground, to destroy strategic German military formations & bases & supply. We likely would have spared one for the Nazi high command in Berlin. Which would have meant radiological contamination of parts of Germany for years to come, of course (we weren't much aware of radiation problems @ that point - & if we were locked in a fight to the death with Germany, & suffered high US & Allied combatant losses, I don't know how much difference possible contamination would have made in the bombing campaign).
Depending on the wind patterns, eastern Europe might not have fared well in the aftermath. For the Soviets, a permanent no-man's-land might have been acceptable. Certainly it wouldn't have needed much in the way of guards nor walls.
US air superiority won WWII. Those that want to come up with other reason, good for you, not reality.
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The bombing campaign in Europe? That wasn't particularly effective, although it was a hardship for the population. Nazi military output was rising throughout the war, although it finally failed for lack of transportation & fuel difficulties. It was hard to keep a workforce going too.
& the US didn't really join the war until Dec. 1941, & our air arms really began to tell in late 1942, I think it was. UK & Commonwealth, France, Poland had to fend for themselves until Japan attacked the US. Bombers in general didn't perform as well as we had hoped - in the Pacific, @ the Philippines & Pearl Harbor. Bomber command did very well @ incendiary attacks on Japan - once LeMay got out there & killed all the sacred cows, tore up the rulebook, & kept pushing for more runs, less armor & MGs, fewer crew.
The work of people such as Alan Turing, Tommy Flowers, Bill Tutte, Gordon Welchman and numerous others at Bletchley Park is said to have shortened WW2 by two years. The worlds first programmable computer was developed at Bletchley Park during WW2.
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Yah, there was a real ferment of technical innovation @ the time, spurred by the Nazi expulsion of scientists, engineers, mathematicians, doctors - Jewish, but also any kind of political opposition to the Nazi regime, or family members who were opposed. I was surprised that GC&CS didn't intervene in the case of Alan Turing - he was one of the secret weapons @ Bletchley, & he should have been preserved against future need. I think he could have revolutionized British telecoms & switching theory, electrical engineering, computing, logic - you could have built whole industries around him & his work.
Tutte (instrumental in breaking German teleprinter traffic) was also virtually ignored, he wound up in Canada, teaching @ Waterloo University, Ontario. See The secret war, 1939 - 1945, Max Hastings, c2016, HarperCollins. It examines spies & ciphers in WWII, very good reading, for those who are interested.
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