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Old 02-02-2017, 09:56 AM
 
Location: San Diego, California Republic
16,588 posts, read 27,387,426 times
Reputation: 9059

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tijlover View Post
Remember how we celebrated when the Soviet Union was broken up into how many different, separate countries? Those breakaway countries would surely recognize California, even help it to secede, with arms, if necessary!

I would find it highly ironic that the Feds would interfere with any state's secession, and, at the same time, encouraged the Soviet Union to split up!
Oh but the feds will interfere. Maybe not the way people think. Not in an 1860's way but they wouldn't just sit there.
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Old 02-02-2017, 10:36 AM
 
3,282 posts, read 3,793,334 times
Reputation: 2971
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I am from Quebec and something of an "armchair expert" of these questions. What do you want to know?
Oh I know there is alot of regional pride there and have heard that they have tried to separate, I was just interested in hearing more about that history.
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Old 02-02-2017, 10:59 AM
 
Location: Estonia
1,704 posts, read 1,837,741 times
Reputation: 2293
Quote:
Originally Posted by tijlover View Post
Remember how we celebrated when the Soviet Union was broken up into how many different, separate countries? Those breakaway countries would surely recognize California, even help it to secede, with arms, if necessary!

I would find it highly ironic that the Feds would interfere with any state's secession, and, at the same time, encouraged the Soviet Union to split up!
No, they wouldn't.

And also, wrong comparison in the first place.
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Old 02-02-2017, 11:32 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
26,882 posts, read 38,026,310 times
Reputation: 11650
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosa surf View Post
Oh I know there is alot of regional pride there and have heard that they have tried to separate, I was just interested in hearing more about that history.
Hoo-boy. How to make this as short as possible.


Yes, in Quebec (and even among many in Canada) there is a sense that this province is a nation within the nation. It's arguably more than "regional" or "regionalism". As most people are aware I assume, Quebec is by most accounts more different (at least on a socio-cultural level) than California or any other state are from the broader American whole.


We've had two referenda on independence here. One in 1980 which was 59-41 for the No. And one in 1995 which was 50.6-49.4 for the no.


The federal government of Canada took part in both of them and campaigned actively on the no side. The feds gave off mixed signals as to whether or not they would recognize the results but generally most everyone expected that they would if the yes side won.


After the close call in 1995, the federal government passed a bill called the Clarity Act which established a series of conditions for a province to leave Canada. Nothing like this was in place when the two referenda took place. The Clarity Act has received mixed reviews, and it's noteworthy that in Quebec itself even most of the people who want Quebec to stay in Canada don't like it much as they see it as a crafty way to "padlock" Quebec inside Canada, as opposed to actually working on improving the federation to the point where most people in Quebec will not want to leave.
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Old 02-02-2017, 11:41 AM
 
Location: San Diego, California Republic
16,588 posts, read 27,387,426 times
Reputation: 9059
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Hoo-boy. How to make this as short as possible.


Yes, in Quebec (and even among many in Canada) there is a sense that this province is a nation within the nation. It's arguably more than "regional" or "regionalism". As most people are aware I assume, Quebec is by most accounts more different (at least on a socio-cultural level) than California or any other state are from the broader American whole.


We've had two referenda on independence here. One in 1980 which was 59-41 for the No. And one in 1995 which was 50.6-49.4 for the no.


The federal government of Canada took part in both of them and campaigned actively on the no side. The feds gave off mixed signals as to whether or not they would recognize the results but generally most everyone expected that they would if the yes side won.


After the close call in 1995, the federal government passed a bill called the Clarity Act which established a series of conditions for a province to leave Canada. Nothing like this was in place when the two referenda took place. The Clarity Act has received mixed reviews, and it's noteworthy that in Quebec itself even most of the people who want Quebec to stay in Canada don't like it much as they see it as a crafty way to "padlock" Quebec inside Canada, as opposed to actually working on improving the federation to the point where most people in Quebec will not want to leave.
What are some of the conditions of the clarity act? In the US, there is no clarity.
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Old 02-02-2017, 11:42 AM
 
3,282 posts, read 3,793,334 times
Reputation: 2971
Quote:
Originally Posted by floridanative10 View Post
There is a much higher probability of California breaking up with racial and economic issues than any statewide secession , the Six Californias movement was kind of interesting.

Twenty-five California counties chose Trump for President of the United States, while 33 went for Clinton. Seventeen of the 21 California counties proposed for the “State of Jefferson” went for Trump, most by a pretty wide margin.

So much of it is racial and alot of the secessionist sentiment is based in LA county and big parts of the bay area, its very racial though. 40% of White Californians went for trump.

You dont think San Diego with its huge military population and influence would be against it? Its very different than LA where 70% of the school kids are Hispanic , LA is increasingly very dominated by latinos
Lots of speculation and ideas in your post that are quite debatable.

Half of my Mexican-American family in CA voted for Trump, all types of people voted for him. Inter-racial marriages of all types are super common here. 'Racial tensions' are exaggerated and over-hyped by the right wing corporate media machine.

San Diego has a huge Hispanic population, huge military population (many Hispanics in the mitary), but it is also quite liberal, wanting POSITIVE relations with Mexico (for the most part) due to business and local economy interests. We are a progressive, welcoming city with low crime, good budget management and peaceful. We want to keep it that way. I don't want my home turned into a war zone just because some frustrated individuals in Iowa or Michigan are pressing for it- NO.

I don't know much about LA. I also don't know anyone who is interested in having CA separate from the country. We are a proud people but I don't see a benefit (at this moment) in separating.
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Old 02-02-2017, 11:47 AM
 
3,282 posts, read 3,793,334 times
Reputation: 2971
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gentoo View Post
No there isn't. That was proposed by a small handfull of rich elites and wasn't at all supported by the vast majority of the state. The fell WELL short of the number of signatures needed to qualify for the ballot.

You're just looking at colors on a map. A good number of counties were red but more people were blue. It's all about population distribution and density. Those counties that went for trump are sparsely populated. Compare that with just LA county which has more people than all but 10 other states.

This sounds like hyperbole.

LOL Telling me about San Diego when I live here. Cute. I do agree with you somewhat though. I am not sure how all this matters. Few if any secessions that have taken place around the world ever have 100% support including the 13 colonies. When it comes to secession, it's always a majority rule sort of thing.


Lol. The military population in San Diego from what I have seen is very chill and has a very 'live let live' mentality. The San Diego weather and vibe makes everyone who arrives here relax. Lol
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Old 02-02-2017, 11:49 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
26,882 posts, read 38,026,310 times
Reputation: 11650
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gentoo View Post
What are some of the conditions of the clarity act? In the US, there is no clarity.
Well, as I said: we didn't have any either for the first two votes.


The Clarity Act stipulates things like the requirement for a clear majority on a clear question, consideration for the rights of indigenous peoples and minorities, the obligation for both sides to negotiate in good faith.


Most notably, though, it does not stipulate a number for what the threshold for a "clear majority" should be.
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Old 02-02-2017, 11:51 AM
 
3,282 posts, read 3,793,334 times
Reputation: 2971
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Hoo-boy. How to make this as short as possible.


Yes, in Quebec (and even among many in Canada) there is a sense that this province is a nation within the nation. It's arguably more than "regional" or "regionalism". As most people are aware I assume, Quebec is by most accounts more different (at least on a socio-cultural level) than California or any other state are from the broader American whole.


We've had two referenda on independence here. One in 1980 which was 59-41 for the No. And one in 1995 which was 50.6-49.4 for the no.


The federal government of Canada took part in both of them and campaigned actively on the no side. The feds gave off mixed signals as to whether or not they would recognize the results but generally most everyone expected that they would if the yes side won.


After the close call in 1995, the federal government passed a bill called the Clarity Act which established a series of conditions for a province to leave Canada. Nothing like this was in place when the two referenda took place. The Clarity Act has received mixed reviews, and it's noteworthy that in Quebec itself even most of the people who want Quebec to stay in Canada don't like it much as they see it as a crafty way to "padlock" Quebec inside Canada, as opposed to actually working on improving the federation to the point where most people in Quebec will not want to leave.
Perfect explanation, thank you! I understand what you mean about being a nation within a nation. This gives clarity regarding the different root causes for these movements.

I also find it very interesting how Canada managed to deal with the situation with the Clarity Act.
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Old 02-02-2017, 11:53 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
26,882 posts, read 38,026,310 times
Reputation: 11650
Regarding the main topic of the thread (recognition), my view is that independence is kind of a "damn the torpedoes" type of thing. You don't generally ask for or wait for the approval of the larger entity. It's something that you "take", not something that you are given. Recognition comes afterwards - and it usually does come eventually from a majority of global actors, except for the most bitterly opposed. Even the most controversial independent entities over time have won some measure of worldwide legitimacy.
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