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Old 07-03-2017, 10:50 AM
 
7,490 posts, read 4,967,449 times
Reputation: 8036

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I see two separate issues: prolonging the death of a terminally ill infant, and national health care. There is no connection between the two.

Prolonging the death of, and experimenting on, a terminally ill, uncommunicative patient who is in pain is cruel. Thankfully, national health care has covered the costs of all treatments and care for the patient.

In the USA, brain-dead declared dead Jahi McMath has been hooked up to machines for a couple of years to keep her body above ground. Is that the experimental plan for the infant - sustained by machines pushing oxygen and food in and out of the dead body.
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Old 07-03-2017, 11:01 AM
 
7,490 posts, read 4,967,449 times
Reputation: 8036
The 10 month old infant is unable to see, hear, or cry. If the brain is damaged, and he is unable to breath on his own, he is for all intents and purposes deceased. I understand that some parents need time to accept the death of a child, but using machines to prolong the death of a terminally ill infant seems borderline horrific.

"Charlie Gard suffers from a rare genetic condition and is unable to breathe unaided. He has a form of mitochondrial disease – a genetic condition that causes progressive muscle weakness and brain damage."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-gards-parents
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Old 07-03-2017, 11:18 AM
 
1,267 posts, read 1,249,431 times
Reputation: 1423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
The pope has gotten involved now, the world is now seeing the EU death panels.
Winterfall, you appear to suffer from this constant habit of starting threads about subjects you know nothing about. Please stop before you embarrass yourself further. Thank you.
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Old 07-03-2017, 11:28 AM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,450,305 times
Reputation: 4831
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbobcat View Post
Winterfall, you appear to suffer from this constant habit of starting threads about subjects you know nothing about. Please stop before you embarrass yourself further. Thank you.
I've read extensively about this subject, the child doesn't have to die yet the U.K. Court is forcing the parents to avoid care available in the US which is available because of advanced research spent in medicine by the US due to economic competetion in the field of healthcare which constantly improves because of natural free market requirements to be a step above the competition, something that doesn't exist in government run healthcare;

You know it's serious when the president of the US and the Pope are getting involved https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonal...75263700783104
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Old 07-03-2017, 11:39 AM
 
Location: Great Britain
27,246 posts, read 13,534,754 times
Reputation: 19607
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
I've read extensively about this subject, the child doesn't have to die yet the U.K. Court is forcing the parents to avoid care available in the US which is available because of advanced research spent in medicine by the US due to economic competetion in the field of healthcare which constantly improves because of natural free market requirements to be a step above the competition, something that doesn't exist in government run healthcare;

You know it's serious when the president of the US and the Pope are getting involved https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonal...75263700783104
The British and European Courts have made their final decision.

It doesn't matter what Donald Trump offers or believes.

Donald Trump offers to help Charlie Gard after UK court rules life support machine to be turned off | The Independent

Charlie Gard: Parents of sick baby lose appeal at European Court of Human Rights | The Independent

The Courts have heard from numerous medical experts and the child is terminally ill with no prospect of getting better, and with very little quality of life.

The European Court of Human Rights is the final Court of Appeal and administers Human Rights Legislation for the 47 Countries which are members of the European Convention on Human Rights and this has to be respected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ECtHR

European Court endorses decisions by the UK courts in Charlie Gard case

In its decision in the case of Gard and Others v. the United Kingdom (application no. 39793/17) today the European Court of Human Rights has by a majority endorsed in substance the approach by the domestic courts and thus declared the application inadmissible.

The decision is final.

Consequently, the Court also considered that it was appropriate to lift the interim measure under Rule 39 of its Rules of Court.

The case concerned Charlie Gard, a baby suffering from a rare and fatal genetic disease.

In February 2017, the treating hospital sought a declaration from the domestic courts as to whether it would be lawful to withdraw artificial ventilation and provide Charlie with palliative care. Charlie’s parents also asked the courts to consider whether it would be in the best interests of their son to undergo experimental treatment in the U.S.A.

The domestic courts concluded that it would be lawful for the hospital to withdraw life sustaining treatment because it was likely that Charlie would suffer significant harm if his present suffering was prolonged without any realistic prospect ofimprovement, and the experimental therapy would be of no effective benefit.

In the proceedings before the European Court, Charlie’s parents argued – on their own behalf and that of their son – under Article 2 (right to life) that the hospital has blocked access to life sustaining treatment (in the U.S.A.) for Charlie and under Article 5 (right to liberty and security) that, as aresult, he is unlawfully deprived of his liberty. They further alleged under Articles 6 (right to a fair trial) and 8 (right to respect for private and family life) that the domestic court decisions amounted to an unfair and disproportionate interference in their parental rights.

The Court bore in mind the considerable room for manoeuvre (“wide margin of appreciation”) left to the authorities in the sphere concerning access to experimental medication for the terminally ill and in cases raising sensitive moral and ethical issues, reiterating that it was not for the Court to substitute itself for the competent domestic authorities. From this perspective, the Court gave weight to the fact that a domestic legal framework – compatible with the Convention – was available governing both access to experimental medication as well as withdrawal of life sustaining treatment.

Furthermore, the domestic court decisions had been meticulous, thorough and reviewed at three levels of jurisdiction with clear and extensive reasoning giving relevant and sufficient support for their conclusions;

The domestic courts had direct contact with all those concerned (notably, they had heard from all the medical experts involved in the treatment as well as experts instructed by the applicants, from Charlie’s parents themselves and from an independent professional appointed as the child’s guardian, had received expert reports from other doctors of international standing in the field and had visited the hospital);

It was appropriate for the hospital to approach the courts in the UK in the event of doubts as to the best decision to take; and, lastly, the domestic courts had concluded, on the basis of extensive, high-quality expert evidence, that it was most likely Charlie was being exposed to continued pain, suffering and distress and that undergoing experimental treatment with no prospects of success would offer no benefit, and continue to cause him significant harm.

The full text of this decision will be available tomorrow on the Court’s website.

Gard and Others v. United Kingdom

European Court of Human Rights - ECHR, CEDH, news, information, press releases

Last edited by Brave New World; 07-03-2017 at 12:21 PM..
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Old 07-03-2017, 12:04 PM
 
Location: Seattle area
9,182 posts, read 12,146,794 times
Reputation: 6405
The OP has no idea what he is talking about.
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Old 07-03-2017, 12:08 PM
 
Location: London, United Kingdom
699 posts, read 369,820 times
Reputation: 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by BMI View Post
Yes, I like that when I go to a walk in clinic, or a hospital, I just show my Health Card,
no money changing hands, no invoice. Of course it's not "free" and I pay for it with my taxes,
but it s much better than the alternative.
Agreed.

Its one aspect of our society that shouldn't be capitalised.

Poor or rich you should receive the same high-standard of healthcare because you can't put any monetarily value to life.
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Old 07-03-2017, 12:11 PM
 
Location: Airstrip 1, Oceania
1,021 posts, read 2,909,456 times
Reputation: 1161
Every US health insurance company has a death panel, Winterfall8324. They just don't call them that. And they are answerable to no-one.
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Old 07-03-2017, 01:06 PM
 
7,490 posts, read 4,967,449 times
Reputation: 8036
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
I've read extensively about this subject, the child doesn't have to die yet the U.K. Court is forcing the parents to avoid care available in the US which is available because of advanced research spent in medicine by the US due to economic competetion in the field of healthcare which constantly improves because of natural free market requirements to be a step above the competition, something that doesn't exist in government run healthcare;

You know it's serious when the president of the US and the Pope are getting involved https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonal...75263700783104
This infant is terminally ill because the brain is not able to sustain life and does not have normal human responses. The question is whether this terminal infant's death should be prolonged for the benefit of, and use of, experimental medicine (treatment). The highest court in the EU has said no.

Leading edge medical research is undertaken in countries that provide national health care and it is completely incorrect to assume that national health care benefits equates to absence of medical research.

Brain cancer laser surgery treatment a first in Canada - British Columbia - CBC News
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Old 07-03-2017, 01:16 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
18,504 posts, read 15,590,252 times
Reputation: 11937
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lieneke View Post
This infant is terminally ill because the brain is not able to sustain life and does not have normal human responses. The question is whether this terminal infant's death should be prolonged for the benefit of, and use of, experimental medicine (treatment). The highest court in the EU has said no.

Leading edge medical research is undertaken in countries that provide national health care and it is completely incorrect to assume that national health care benefits equates to absence of medical research.

Brain cancer laser surgery treatment a first in Canada - British Columbia - CBC News
This link gives a bit more background on the treatment.

"The technique was created by Mark Torchia and Richard Tyc of the University of Manitoba and consists of heating the cancerous tissue with a laser, making it more receptive to chemotherapy."

"A Winnipeg-based privately held company, Monteris Medical, developed the tool that Torchia and Tyc invented."

New laser method could help neurosurgeons get at hard-to-reach tumours - Health - CBC News
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