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Old 07-13-2017, 03:34 PM
 
26,790 posts, read 22,561,271 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtt99 View Post
This was Moscow in the 90's under Yeltsin...


This is Moscow today under Putin...
Uh-oh, I can post pictures too; lookie here -

This was Moscow in 1917 under Lenin



And this is Moscow in the 30ies under Stalin)))



Truth to be told, Putin is as much continuity of Yeltsin as Stalin is a continuity of Lenin.
It's all about the "stage of development."
Yeltsin was there during the initial stage of chaos and thuggery when Americans brought "wild capitalism" in Russia; Putin took over during the next stage of turning thuggery into law, giving it "shape and legitimacy."
Enough with the legends of some "knight on the white horse" that came "out of nowhere" and saved mother Russia from "destruction."
It's sufficient to see who Putin was during the 90ies and what he was busy with back then. Being on Sobchak's team, he was every bit of Yeltsin's establishment, so so much for your pictures)))
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Old 07-14-2017, 08:26 AM
 
Location: Seoul
11,554 posts, read 9,332,195 times
Reputation: 4660
Come on, I've grown up in the Russia in the 90s and the early-2000s, I remember what it was like. Bombings/terror attacks everywhere, high crime, kidnappings, etc. I remember how afraid my parents were about me going outside alone, whereas in the 70s and 80s my parents would always go outside as kids by themselves with no problem. Russia changed in the 90s, and not for the best. If not for Putin we would be looking at an oligarch narcostate with Chechen terrorist attacks like back in the good ol' 90s
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Old 07-14-2017, 10:30 AM
 
26,790 posts, read 22,561,271 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warszawa View Post
Come on, I've grown up in the Russia in the 90s and the early-2000s, I remember what it was like. Bombings/terror attacks everywhere, high crime, kidnappings, etc. I remember how afraid my parents were about me going outside alone, whereas in the 70s and 80s my parents would always go outside as kids by themselves with no problem. Russia changed in the 90s, and not for the best. If not for Putin we would be looking at an oligarch narcostate with Chechen terrorist attacks like back in the good ol' 90s
"Come on" what?
Have you read what I've said?
Am I saying that Yeltsin was wonderful and that's when "Russia had freedom and democracy" and "with Putin came all the horrid things?"
No, what I am saying here is that if you look closer, Putin is coming from the same mold.
Ask yourself couple of questions - did he change the results of criminal "privatization"? No, he made it clear when asked that "it's not going to be changed."
And another one - what happened to A. Chubais, the main figure of this criminality, darling of the US establishment and IMF? Was he sent to Siberia?
Again NO, under Putin he received quiet lucrative deal. And the last but not least - what happen to Russian oligarchy? Did it all miraculously disappear under Putin? The answer is yet again - no, under Putin Russia remained to be an oligarchic state.
Of course Russians didn't forget what they've been through, their whole ordeal back in that period of time with the help of Clintons - who would?
So it's very indicative that current Putin's "political opponent" A. Navalny ( yet another darling of American gov.) is looking for support already among the 15-16 year olds - i.e. the generation that didn't live through the nineties. Because those who did, ( and that's most of the country) don't want to part with Putin for the reasons you mentioned here. Even though it's all one big lie, when you look into it.
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Old 07-14-2017, 10:55 AM
 
6,112 posts, read 3,925,140 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
"Come on" what?
Have you read what I've said?
Am I saying that Yeltsin was wonderful and that's when "Russia had freedom and democracy" and "with Putin came all the horrid things?"
No, what I am saying here is that if you look closer, Putin is coming from the same mold.
Ask yourself couple of questions - did he change the results of criminal "privatization"? No, he made it clear when asked that "it's not going to be changed."
And another one - what happened to A. Chubais, the main figure of this criminality, darling of the US establishment and IMF? Was he sent to Siberia?
Again NO, under Putin he received quiet lucrative deal. And the last but not least - what happen to Russian oligarchy? Did it all miraculously disappear under Putin? The answer is yet again - no, under Putin Russia remained to be an oligarchic state.
Of course Russians didn't forget what they've been through, their whole ordeal back in that period of time with the help of Clintons - who would?
So it's very indicative that current Putin's "political opponent" A. Navalny ( yet another darling of American gov.) is looking for support already among the 15-16 year olds - i.e. the generation that didn't live through the nineties. Because those who did, ( and that's most of the country) don't want to part with Putin for the reasons you mentioned here. Even though it's all one big lie, when you look into it.
Exactly, if Putin came into power during the era of chaos, like Yeltsin did, then he would also be looked back on as a poor leader. You can only work with what you have, and Yeltsin had very little to work with.
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Old 07-14-2017, 11:09 AM
 
Location: Seoul
11,554 posts, read 9,332,195 times
Reputation: 4660
Quote:
Originally Posted by Razza94 View Post
Exactly, if Putin came into power during the era of chaos, like Yeltsin did, then he would also be looked back on as a poor leader. You can only work with what you have, and Yeltsin had very little to work with.
Except that things magically started turning around once Putin came to power...
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Old 07-14-2017, 12:10 PM
 
Location: Seattle WA, USA
5,699 posts, read 4,932,037 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warszawa View Post
Except that things magically started turning around once Putin came to power...
I think it's a combination of both. Yeltsin was a drunk and not qualified to be president, and Putin was blessed to come into power right at the time that oil prices started to rise. Putin isn't necessarily a poor leader, but he was dealt a good hand of cards, and he played it well, but if those same cards were dealt to an actual great leader then Russia would've been way better. Russia has such a large educated and talented population, it's a shame that Russia is only know for being an energy superpower rather than an innovation superpower. Russia needs to focus more on its brain power, rather than its muscles and natural resources.
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Old 07-14-2017, 12:17 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,434,708 times
Reputation: 4831
Donald J Trump
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Old 07-14-2017, 12:24 PM
 
Location: Seoul
11,554 posts, read 9,332,195 times
Reputation: 4660
Quote:
Originally Posted by grega94 View Post
I think it's a combination of both. Yeltsin was a drunk and not qualified to be president, and Putin was blessed to come into power right at the time that oil prices started to rise. Putin isn't necessarily a poor leader, but he was dealt a good hand of cards, and he played it well, but if those same cards were dealt to an actual great leader then Russia would've been way better. Russia has such a large educated and talented population, it's a shame that Russia is only know for being an energy superpower rather than an innovation superpower. Russia needs to focus more on its brain power, rather than its muscles and natural resources.
Russia actually had an excellent education system during the times of the Soviet Union, and even up until the 2000s. When my family moved to the US I was much farther ahead of other students in my class, whereas in Russia I was pretty much average
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Old 07-14-2017, 12:33 PM
 
Location: Seattle WA, USA
5,699 posts, read 4,932,037 times
Reputation: 4943
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warszawa View Post
Russia actually had an excellent education system during the times of the Soviet Union, and even up until the 2000s. When my family moved to the US I was much farther ahead of other students in my class, whereas in Russia I was pretty much average
That's what I'm saying, Russia has a lot smart people, and great scientists/researchers, but most of Russian discoveries are not applied to create products, except when the military is involved. For instance the Russians invented the laser, but they didn't do anything with it, but it was the Americans who took that technology and applied to make money. Americans know how to make money, Russians don't. Btw I always assumed you were polish, because you know, your username is the capital of Poland.
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Old 07-14-2017, 04:01 PM
 
26,790 posts, read 22,561,271 times
Reputation: 10039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Razza94 View Post
Exactly, if Putin came into power during the era of chaos, like Yeltsin did, then he would also be looked back on as a poor leader. You can only work with what you have, and Yeltsin had very little to work with.
Not QUITE true, sorry to say.
Yeltsin had things to work with too; he had his chance to become one of the greatest and popular leaders in Russian history. Initially he had overwhelming support of Russian population ( after all he was a truly democratically-elected leader,) and he did have a good economic adviser in his team to begin with.
The problem with Yeltsin though was a fact that he was a typical product of the Soviet system - i.e. he was thoroughly indoctrinated by it, he was very unworldly and didn't understand much either in international affairs or free market economy. So both sides of his presidency ( his popularity and his shortcomings) were shrewdly used by Americans.
They were literally sitting in Kremlin, creating the new laws, which he was signing as presidential decrees.
He was very gullible and from what I know, when he saw the results of economic reforms ( pushed through by none other but him,) he was shocked. If ever the expression "the road to hell is paved with best intentions" was true, that was the case.
Putin of course was the whole different story...
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