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Old 02-20-2019, 12:00 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
18,504 posts, read 15,555,283 times
Reputation: 11937

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
I agree that the citizenship oath is kind of rigid for normal purposes. The U.S. is not a police state or authoritarian state.

However, it is legally within the right of the U.S. Government to require its citizens to renounce allegiance to any foreign country and swear allegiance to the U.S. and the Constitution. Of course, the Selective Service requires male citizens of a certain age to register and they may be called to join the Armed Forces at any time if there is a war.

A lot of people think that "free speech" is unlimited. In reality, it is not and never has been. You are not free to reveal state secrets to enemies of the United States or terrorists, for example. The U.S. Government will certainly come after you if you try to do that.

It is like our immigration laws. Just because millions of people have come into the United States illegally over the last few decades doesn't mean that things will necessarily continue this way. Illegal immigration can be stopped, even forcefully, at any time and it is within the right of the U.S. Government to do so.
So then why did you think this is acceptable? You did say " And a teacher has the right to punish a student for being anti-American ..."

I asked you earlier, but you did not answer Who decides what is anti-American? You or a government body?

It sounds pretty authoritarian to me.
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Old 02-20-2019, 12:41 PM
 
Location: San Diego, California Republic
16,588 posts, read 27,390,347 times
Reputation: 9059
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Typically though this is never legally required of native-born citizens, and for naturalized citizens you would only require it once, at the precise moment when they acquire citizenship.


If you're a full-fledged citizen you shouldn't be constantly asked to re-affirm your loyalty to the country at every turn.
^^^This
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Old 02-20-2019, 01:30 PM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
27,566 posts, read 28,665,617 times
Reputation: 25155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
So then why did you think this is acceptable? You did say " And a teacher has the right to punish a student for being anti-American ..."

I asked you earlier, but you did not answer Who decides what is anti-American? You or a government body?

It sounds pretty authoritarian to me.
In this case, the situation went well beyond just disrespecting the pledge of allegiance. The student became disruptive and threatening. That is certainly unacceptable.

In my opinion, the school has the right to require the student to stand for the pledge of allegiance when it is recited at school. As a U.S. citizen, the student has a duty to pledge allegiance to the United States. That overrides his freedom of speech in this situation. Freedom of speech is not unlimited.
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Old 02-20-2019, 03:45 PM
 
Location: San Diego, California Republic
16,588 posts, read 27,390,347 times
Reputation: 9059
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
In this case, the situation went well beyond just disrespecting the pledge of allegiance. The student became disruptive and threatening. That is certainly unacceptable.

In my opinion, the school has the right to require the student to stand for the pledge of allegiance when it is recited at school. As a U.S. citizen, the student has a duty to pledge allegiance to the United States. That overrides his freedom of speech in this situation. Freedom of speech is not unlimited.
Freedom of speech is not unlimited but this is not included in the exceptions. Forced patriotism the way you're talking about it makes us no different than North Korea. True freedom is protected an individual's right to perform these rituals.

How does it impact your life if others choose not to? I think I've asked you this before.
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Old 02-20-2019, 05:40 PM
 
Location: Cebu, Philippines
5,869 posts, read 4,210,466 times
Reputation: 10942
I have been in countries where the national anthem is played before and after movies, and there are police in the theater who will arrest any person who does not stand at attention while it is playing. Raise your hand if you are in favor of the US being one of these countries. If you say "That is going too far", tell us where to draw to line.
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Old 02-20-2019, 05:40 PM
 
22,923 posts, read 15,489,598 times
Reputation: 16962
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Typically though this is never legally required of native-born citizens, and for naturalized citizens you would only require it once, at the precise moment when they acquire citizenship.


If you're a full-fledged citizen you shouldn't be constantly asked to re-affirm your loyalty to the country at every turn.
Especially when the one sitting in the Oval Office at present, Captain Bone Spurs himself, seems unable to fulfill more relevant "allegiance" obligations to the same extent as they demanded of this kid in question.
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Old 02-20-2019, 07:15 PM
 
5,428 posts, read 3,497,292 times
Reputation: 5031
Quote:
Originally Posted by cebuan View Post
I have been in countries where the national anthem is played before and after movies, and there are police in the theater who will arrest any person who does not stand at attention while it is playing. Raise your hand if you are in favor of the US being one of these countries. If you say "That is going too far", tell us where to draw to line.
Thailand comes to mind here. I'm not sure if they still do it, but as recently as 2016 it was still a thing, though I did not see any cops in the theater.
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Old 02-20-2019, 09:48 PM
 
Location: Cebu, Philippines
5,869 posts, read 4,210,466 times
Reputation: 10942
In Romania, the newsreel showed a state visit in which Ceausescu and Brezhnev did the airkiss thing. In the audience, someone shouted "Don't forget to kiss his a--". The projector stopped and the light came up and a party official went to the stage and delivered a stern lecture about respect etc, and then restarted the film from the beginning. When it came to the airkiss, everyone in unison shouted "Don't forget to kiss his a--". The main feature was cancelled and the theater was cleared.
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Old 02-20-2019, 11:14 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
18,504 posts, read 15,555,283 times
Reputation: 11937
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
In this case, the situation went well beyond just disrespecting the pledge of allegiance. The student became disruptive and threatening. That is certainly unacceptable.

In my opinion, the school has the right to require the student to stand for the pledge of allegiance when it is recited at school. As a U.S. citizen, the student has a duty to pledge allegiance to the United States. That overrides his freedom of speech in this situation. Freedom of speech is not unlimited.
His behaviour regarding the threats, should be addressed, but not by the police. That's the schools job. He didn't behave in a violent way. The charges even state that.

Now. In YOUR opinion. Well, too bad for you. Why? Because YOUR opinion, nor mine, nor anyone else's matters in this situation. The school does NOT have the right to require a student to stand for the pledge. It has been tested and proven that they, he, has a constitutional right not to partake in the pledge.

As a US citizen, this kid, this child, has no duty to pledge anything to anyone. His freedom of speech is protected, and he used it. It's just that you didn't like it.
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Old 02-20-2019, 11:18 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
18,504 posts, read 15,555,283 times
Reputation: 11937
Quote:
Originally Posted by cebuan View Post
In Romania, the newsreel showed a state visit in which Ceausescu and Brezhnev did the airkiss thing. In the audience, someone shouted "Don't forget to kiss his a--". The projector stopped and the light came up and a party official went to the stage and delivered a stern lecture about respect etc, and then restarted the film from the beginning. When it came to the airkiss, everyone in unison shouted "Don't forget to kiss his a--". The main feature was cancelled and the theater was cleared.
I'm sure BigCityDreamer would have been disappointed with this audience, I mean, after all, it's their DUTY to be respectful.
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