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To be fair I don't think I've ever heard Kansas, they're not very famous here. I know their name, but I don't know what they sound like.
You're right about the Ramones, but they're contemporary to the Sex Pistols who also had the "image" and the provocative lyrics and attitude. I mean in the UK it was formalized as such, with a bunch of bands everywhere. Of course the Ramones were influential, I'm not denying it, but they always struck me more as a sped up rock'n'roll band. Great band anyway.
Another example of something created in the UK: Hard rock / heavy metal. Think about Led Zeppelin / Black Sabbath / Deep Purple who were probably the three most important bands in the genre. Then came Motorhead who were also an english band, and later Iron Maiden. I think the US really took back the crown with Thrash and death metal in the 80s. You can say that the original was Stooges and MC5 but they are a different style compared to early 70s heavy metal which was something new. Ok, the US also had Blue Oyster Cult...
Hard Rock/Heavy Metal, again, weren't "created in the UK".
Indeed, the UK had popular bands that contributed to originating metal, but the US gave rise to the earliest proto-metal influences and had as many active heavy metal/hard rock acts in the late 60s/early 70s, partially because it rose out of, and was directly synonymous with, American invented "Acid Rock", also known as Heavy Psychedelia.
MC5, The Stooges, Dust, Mountain, Steppenwolf, Grand Funk Railroad, Coven, Sir Lord Baltimore, Blue Oyster Cult, Blue Cheer (who influenced Black Sabbath), Iron Butterfly, Jimi Hendrix, Vanilla Fudge, Montrose, Alice Cooper, Aerosmith, Ted Nugent, Pentagram, Quiet Riot, The Runaways, Cirith Ungol, Ronnie James Dio, Twisted Sister, Kiss, Van Halen, etc, were all active as early Metal/Psychedelic/Hard Rock acts at the same time, and the influence on Hard Rock goes back to artists and bands like Link Wray, The Sonics, The Kingsmen, and Memphis Blues Acts, as well as later Psychedelic acts like 13th Floor Elevators, and crossover acts like Lynyrd Skynyrd and The Eagles. There were about as many American 70s metal acts as there were British 70s metal acts. Lemmy was actually inspired to create Motorhead after hearing "Kick out the Jams", by the MC5.
I realize I've mentioned The Stooges and MC5 a lot. They really were the earliest direct influences on both Punk and Metal.
Last edited by bellatrixwand; 05-05-2020 at 04:57 PM..
I grew up on 80s video reruns and most of the catchiest and iconic songs were made by British or even Irish artists:
Human League, Depeche Mode, David Bowie, Eddy Grant, Tears For Fears, Joy Division, U2, Elton John, Dire Straits, Madness, Yazz(oo)/Alison Moyet, ELO, Culture Club, Robert Palmer, Paul Young, Phil Collins, Steve Winwood, Kate Bush, Pink Floyd, The Cure, Eurythmix, Duran Duran, Wham!, Queen, A Flock of Seagulls, Billy Idol,Kim Wilde, Dexy's Midnight Runners, Soft Cell, Visage, Mel & Kim, Bananarama, Bonnie Tyler, Nik Kershaw, etc.
For such a tiny-sized land, the UK wiped the floor with the US in 1981-1985 and only MJ, Prince and Madonna could face them. Many of the experimental and most associated with the 80s acts were Brits. 80s American pop & rock was too AC and kinda bland, covered 50s or 60s classics, or covered recent European hits (Gloria, Self Control or Our Lipps Are Sealed).
It would take up to 1986/1987 until Americans could really challenge the British output. By that time New wave was on its way out anyway.
Sure, Brits would mostly take American-made genres and styles. But they vastly imrpoved on them IMO.
I give credit to America in the 1920s-1950s, their musicals and Gershiwn-like music cannot be matched today. But since the 1960s they've often been eclipsed by Brits, fact.
Big band, classic 50s rock, Jazz, RnB, Soul = US
Post-60s rock, 80s pop = mostly UK
Culture Club? Eddy Grant? Duran Duran? Seriously? Next you're going to tell me Rick Astley was just one of many examples of musical genius from the UK that clearly sweeps the floor with anything the US produced from the 60s to now.
Seriously, how delusional are boosters of British music like you?
I'm sorry, but I don't think anything in that list of British artists you've cultivated, aside from perhaps a few, matches or eclipses active American artists at the time like Romeo Void, Talking Heads, The Violent Femmes, Devo, Patti Smith, Blondie, Kim Carnes, Dramarama, Billy Joel, Michael Jackson, Madonna, Prince, Berlin, Oingo Boingo, Hall and Oates, Foreigner, Huey Lewis and the News, Stevie Nicks, REO Speedwagon, Kool and the Gang, The Bangles, Journey, ZZ Top, Van Halen, Blue Oyster Cult, Megadeath, Slayer, The B-52's, The Carpenters, The Replacements, The Cars, Husker Du, Joan Jett, Tom Petty, The Pixies, Cyndi Lauper, Donna Summer, Cher, The Go-Gos, Metallica, Guns N Roses, Beastie Boys, Grandmaster Flash, R.E.M., 10,000 Maniacs, even Bon Jovi, etc...
Bonnie Tyler's songs were written by Americans...
To say that Britain "improved" American styles when they hardly contributed new genres to the musical landscape beyond subtly different microgenres and culturally insular music scenes is pretty arrogant, especially because your entire argument revolves around one decade, and most of the artists you list are not at all unique or distinct, and didn't have massive success in the US, nor did they invent anything new. Again. I consider that cultural appropriation. Michael Jackson, Prince, and Madonna were more globally popular than most if not all of the artists coming out of the UK or Europe in the decade.
The point is, Britain was only able to match the US from the 60s to the 80s. By being entirely derivative of American styles. They had some popular bands. That doesn't mean they "improved" on anything America did. They didn't solely invent radical new genres. And ever since the 80s, they've utterly failed to match America or to produce anything distinct.
Britpop? Lol, it was explicitly 60s nostalgia.
I guess I can give them some heaping of credit for being hugely influential in the New Wave scene...but then, AGAIN, America created that just as much as Britain did. So...eh. They've really only got Synthpop to their name.
Quote:
But since the 1960s they've often been eclipsed by Brits, fact
This is absolutely false and not a fact. The UK could hardly match the diversity of music and the amount of artists active in the US in the heyday of the 60s, and haven't been able to even match the US whatsoever since the mid-80s. They haven't created anything new or globally popular on anywhere near the same level since then. "Per Capita" is such a useless term here. Music isn't money. It's an un-measurable cultural element. The number of bands/artists/genres, etc a country produces is the number it produces, period.
They have created bands that were individually popular, they haven't been able to match the US for inventiveness and genre creation.
You're trying to argue that a handful of mildly popular new wave acts from 81-85 means that the UK "wipes the floor with the US"? Um...no. Try again. Acting like A Flock of Seagulls, Culture Club, Mel and Kim (never heard of them), Nik Kershaw (never heard of him), Visage (never heard of them), Bonnie Tyler, and Dexy's Midnight Runners "wipes the floor" with anything the US produced at the time, let alone anytime after, is absurd.
And please, the 90s? THAT'S a true embarrassment. Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Alice in Chains, Mudhoney, Stone Temple Pilots, Mazzy Star, Pantera, LL Cool J, The Notorious B.I.G., Tupac Shakur, Rage Against the Machine, Tool, Smashing Pumpkins, System of a Down, TLC, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Soundgarden, No Doubt, Nine Inch Nails, Blind Melon, Pavement, Jane's Addiction, Sonic Youth, Faith No More, Counting Crows, Incubus, Deftones vs. what? Oasis? maybe Radiohead? The Verve?
Yeah, don't make me laugh. I'll say it again: People use the same 5 or 6 rock bands from the 60s/70s to elevate Britain's music scene and that's it. No one is singing the praises of British music for their simplistic, poppy new wave bands, or even less, artists like Oasis, Blur, Coldplay, One Direction, The 1975, Stormzy, or Cheryl Cole, and/or no one should be.
Last edited by bellatrixwand; 05-05-2020 at 05:25 PM..
Btw, it must be said and given credit that many African American artists put out some great songs in 1981-1985. Michael Jackson's Thriller album, Diana Ross, Tina Turner, Ray Parker Jr. with his catchy Ghostbusters theme, Whitney's first album from 1985, Solid by Ashford & Simpson, the mixed-race KC & the Sunshine band, the campy but talented Sylvester. Hall and Oats were also Black soul-influenced. Few of them made it really big on the charts though and at first MTV was reluctant to play Black or mixed race artists and bands. Mainstream white public was also reluctant at first.
Until circa 1985 they were often overlooked by the media. So in early 80s pop/rock, British music was so much better than the bland White American one from those years which was mostly AC/arena rock dross. The ocasional good Rick Springfield, Kim Carnes, Go Go's or the Cars hit doesn't make for all the blandness in the first half of the 80s, so Brits gladly filled the void.
So basically, you have a stigma against white Americans, and are erroneously asserting your opinion as the arbiter of what's "bland" and what's not?
To attempt to say that the UK dominates "all rock since the 60s" is simply delusional. They couldn't create their own succinct rock genre beyond a few microgenres. How you can you argue that without mentioning the Beatles and Led Zeppelin 60 times, or else boosting some New Wave bands to an ungodly extent like you're doing? They've hardly been a player in rock since the 70s! Their popular exports have been mostly pop since!
Because Culture Club? Bonnie Tyler? A Flock of Seagulls? Are you SERIOUS? They don't eclipse ANYTHING the US had going in the 80s. They are as bland as anything. The only artists on that list that do are the 70s hold-overs. Get over yourself. MJ and Prince alone STOMP all of them in terms of 80s influence and fame.
The British musical exports from the 80s were widely derided in America (and in Britain, if I'm not mistaken) as being bland and pop-y and ephemeral, "style over substance".
Your imputations about white America are just false. American Bandstand had mixed appearances in the 50s. Your arguments are such trash.
Last edited by bellatrixwand; 05-05-2020 at 05:32 PM..
the contribution of germany is often overlooked in modern day music , the likes of kraftwerk practically invented modern dance - electronic music , even it took more than a decade for it to become even approaching mainstream
kraftwerk were doing it in the early seventies
add to that , a lot of classic dance tracks while fronted by an american or brit , were essentially german in terms of production and musicianship
I'd agree. You tend to overlook, if you don't have an international eye, how much was going on with hard rock/metal/new wave in Germany. Going all the way back to the late 60s.
Nowhere on the planet has dominated the worlds charts as much as British music over the last 50 years or so. The best performers I've seen live are British - Pink Floyd and THE greatest rock frontman there has ever been, Queen, saw them when only a young boy in the Eighties, they were phenomenal. Rock music isn't my favourite genre though, I am more of a two tone rude boy! (showing my age).
Nowhere on the planet has dominated the worlds charts as much as British music over the last 50 years or so. The best performers I've seen live are British - Pink Floyd and THE greatest rock frontman there has ever been, Queen, saw them when only a young boy in the Eighties, they were phenomenal. Rock music isn't my favourite genre though, I am more of a two tone rude boy! (showing my age).
This is a very general statement that I'm going to make, and it stems solely from my experience.
A lot of people who don't delve too much into a band or group, but know a song or two from that group, tend to think of them as Americans, since mostly the accents disappear while singing.
Of course groups like The Rolling Stones etc are know to be British, but you would be surprised at how many times I've heard over the years " Oh, I didn't know they were British ".
The same applies to some Canadian acts as well. Friends in Europe just assumed Bryan Adams was American.
This is a very general statement that I'm going to make, and it stems solely from my experience.
A lot of people who don't delve too much into a band or group, but know a song or two from that group, tend to think of them as Americans, since mostly the accents disappear while singing.
Of course groups like The Rolling Stones etc are know to be British, but you would be surprised at how many times I've heard over the years " Oh, I didn't know they were British ".
The same applies to some Canadian acts as well. Friends in Europe just assumed Bryan Adams was American.
Yes accents seem to often disappear when people sing, non native English speakers are always confusing British bands as American, not just bands but actors and actresses too. Also works both ways, we have American, Canadian, Australian actors on the TV here that I thought were British! Actors & actresses do different regional English language accents much better than they used to. I once won a 20 quid bet with a Romanian work colleague over Ozzy Osbournes nationality! :-)
I just forgot Ultravox, Van Morrison, Lulu, Hazel O'Connor, Swing Out Sister, Danny Wilson, Cilla Clark, Joan Armatrading, Kiki Dee, Dusty Springfield, Sandy Shaw, Toyah, Tanita Tikaram, Beverley Craven, Transvision Vamp, and Matt Bianco. I think the Polish-born and raised Basia also counts as a British artist. Danny Wilson's Mary's Prayer made it into a Hollywood movie!
Maybe some of these were not commercially big but they were ground-breaking, talented and/or improving on prior acts. And yes, despite some bad late 80s songs, many of the Brit acts had talent. Rick Astley could sing despite being given bad material, Mel and Kim too. Mandy Smith and Kylie not but Mandy was breathtakingly beautiful and Kylie had catchy songs and was charming. She later improved her voice and is still a name so... Even Sonia Evans had a powerful voice! Mel & Kim basically previewed the early 90s acid jazz/house in 1987 with Respectable! UK also had the first gender bender singers like Divine, Annie Lennox, Marylin, George Michael.
I also thought many British acts were American. US media is so powerful, you always assume someone is American. But I thought Elton John is French due to a French-themed music video lol.
Indeed, the UK had popular bands that contributed to originating metal, but the US gave rise to the earliest proto-metal influences and had as many active heavy metal/hard rock acts in the late 60s/early 70s, partially because it rose out of, and was directly synonymous with, American invented "Acid Rock", also known as Heavy Psychedelia.
MC5, The Stooges, Dust, Mountain, Steppenwolf, Grand Funk Railroad, Coven, Sir Lord Baltimore, Blue Oyster Cult, Blue Cheer (who influenced Black Sabbath), Iron Butterfly, Jimi Hendrix, Vanilla Fudge, Montrose, Alice Cooper, Aerosmith, Ted Nugent, Pentagram, Quiet Riot, The Runaways, Cirith Ungol, Ronnie James Dio, Twisted Sister, Kiss, Van Halen, etc, were all active as early Metal/Psychedelic/Hard Rock acts at the same time, and the influence on Hard Rock goes back to artists and bands like Link Wray, The Sonics, The Kingsmen, and Memphis Blues Acts, as well as later Psychedelic acts like 13th Floor Elevators, and crossover acts like Lynyrd Skynyrd and The Eagles. There were about as many American 70s metal acts as there were British 70s metal acts. Lemmy was actually inspired to create Motorhead after hearing "Kick out the Jams", by the MC5.
I realize I've mentioned The Stooges and MC5 a lot. They really were the earliest direct influences on both Punk and Metal.
I don't think we're talking the same language. Nobody has ever called Stooges of MC5 heavy metal. They're certainly a serious influence on british heavy metal but they're certainly not the same thing and Black Sabbath came up with a sound that hadn't been done by an American band before.
Basically you just say that only American bands are influential. Of course every british band has been influenced at some point by an american band. It does not mean that they can't come up by something new and original. You just seem to never acknowledge how the american bands can be influenced by bands from other countries.
Everything is an influence on everything. If we go back to Link Wray, Chick Berry and Eddie Cochran, then why not go back to the influence of gospel on rock'n'roll and what was sung was slaves brought from Africa.
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