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Good point. That's why when the Trump administration announced a series of sanctions on high ranking Chinese/Hong Kong officials involved in alleged human rights abuses and political persecutions (a total of 12 high ranking Chinese/HK officials), the Chinese Foreign Ministry has no counter measure (though Beijing and Hong Kong governments did say that they will sanction "corresponding U.S. officials and citizens" but provided no detail), simply because of the above:
Very few respectable U.S. officials and high net worth persons have any interest going to or moving to China, ever, while the reverse is true for Chinese Communist Party officials and ultra-rich private persons who have a habit of purchasing property abroad in Canada, UK, U.S. and certain western countries, and sending their children and family (along with accompanying mistress(es)) to these deplorable western countries. The latest Trump administration sanctions are powerful because it targets exactly these high ranking Communist Party beneficiaries who: on the one hand preaches nationalism and patriotism to their own country men, while at the same time discreetly funnels their private (and public assets) and families abroad. Since the implementation of these sanctions, these officials have publicly condemned the U.S. but all of them know there's not a damn thing they can do about it. One of the most high ranking officials - Hong Kong Chief Executive Carrie Lam's very own son studies in Boston, MA (along with a well-funded U.S.-based trust fund and a Cambridge MA condo) are all in jeopardy now.
Right, but how strongly correlated is that to how much mass transit infrastructure there are in both places? It's interesting that China makes the investment, and it does seem like a good investment overall in terms of resource use and land policy, but the fact of the matter is that China is still a developing country and a pretty authoritarian one to boot. It's likely more of the immigration from China is driven by economic motivation than it is about political motivation--which is a key thing to remember and why it's important to have public education for their children instill the value that derives from having a democratic system and public political engagement. However, to me, it's odd to arrive at the conclusion that the value to be instilled is lesser mass transit just because China has been more gung-ho about investing in mass transit as Chinese nationals seem to also immigrate to wealthier countries with better mass transit systems than what you find in the US. That to me sort of aligns more with the idea that they’re immigrating for economic reasons as the baseline commonality for the places they immigrate to are that the countries are generally much wealthier per capita.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 08-28-2020 at 02:32 PM..
One thing that was arguably inaccurate about the original post was that China has a rail system that beats that of all the other systems in the world. It certainly has a very extensive one and the highest overall ridership, but that's also part and parcel of its sheer size in land area and population. Pound for pound, Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, Spain, Germany, France, Denmark, the Netherlands, Czech Republic, Switzerland, and others I'd argue have better. For example, the metropolitan areas of Barcelona, Berlin, Fukuoka, and Singapore are of comparable metropolitan population to those of Wenzhou, Zhengzhou, Qingdao, and Harbin in China, but mass transit in the former absolutely blow away the systems in the latter.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 08-28-2020 at 02:18 PM..
Americans have rights, so they can't just show up with a bulldozer and scrape your house off the planet to build a new rail system in the middle of town. The Chinese have no such rights. All the Chinese rail agencies have to do is draw a straight line on the map and then evict everybody in their path. It doesn't work that way in America.
I was of the same view as you until I saw this news.
Imagine that some homeowners in a communist country could drive such a hard bargain with their local governments.
I was of the same view as you until I saw this news.
Imagine that some homeowners in a communist country could drive such a hard bargain with their local governments.
I have seen that before and always considered it more of an "up yours" than a "we lost" for the local Chinese govt. "OK you want to play hardball. We'll just isolate you in a pit. No big deal".
Actually it is quite humbug to board mass transit in China. The passengers have to go through security check no matter he boards train, subway or even ferry.
Americans like to commute/travel by car for some plain simple reasons: 1 Privacy 2 Gas is cheap 3 Cars are generally inexpensive.
And comparably Japan's Shinkansen offers more enjoyable ride than China's High Speed train. The former is much less crowded and runs more frequently. Some train stations, i.e. Tokyo, are located right at the city center and passengers can easily connect with other modes of transportation. Many High Speed rail stations in China are located outside of the city.
I have seen that before and always considered it more of an "up yours" than a "we lost" for the local Chinese govt. "OK you want to play hardball. We'll just isolate you in a pit. No big deal".
Yea, but it costs the government a ton of money to do that and most of the rest of the people take the money because the government generally offers pretty decent compensation. Sometimes some people wish for a rail development near them, because it either 1) if they're literally in the right-of-way, first dibs / give newer housing or 2) their area becomes a lot more developed with more stores, businesses, and general investment. You can also hold out and then the government either doesn't do it and reroutes a lot if enough people refuse or they reroute a little bit because they need to. Of course, this somewhat depends on the province / municipality, because there are places that are less scrupulous than others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian_Lee
Actually it is quite humbug to board mass transit in China. The passengers have to go through security check no matter he boards train, subway or even ferry.
Americans like to commute/travel by car for some plain simple reasons: 1 Privacy 2 Gas is cheap 3 Cars are generally inexpensive.
And comparably Japan's Shinkansen offers more enjoyable ride than China's High Speed train. The former is much less crowded and runs more frequently. Some train stations, i.e. Tokyo, are located right at the city center and passengers can easily connect with other modes of transportation. Many High Speed rail stations in China are located outside of the city.
The security checks have generally been nothing as far as my experience has been--like, throw a bag through a quick scanner if you have a large bag, but generally waved through especially if there's a crowd.
Cars and their associated costs generally aren't really that inexpensive. I think you also need to consider that the mass transit available as an alternative to cars is generally awful. We're talking about doubling, tripling, quadrupling, etc. the time spent for your average trip and with limited schedules and often the mass transit vehicle itself kind of blows, and as pointed out before, in the US it's generally the domain of people who can't afford a private vehicle.
Agree that the Shinkansen experience, as well as the regular non-Shinkansen services, are better than their counterparts in China. I stated this before--I don't think China has the best mass transit of all countries. It's simply very large and populous and has the best among developing countries and with the superlatives that come with its large size and population.
Did you somehow forget that you're in the World forum and that we've been talking about comparisons to other countries? Did you forget what point you're making?
In the United States, a large percentage of suburbs are wealthy or upper-middle class and have many of the amenities (although not all) that people would normally associate with the proper cities of other countries.
This is one reason why it is difficult to compare the living situation in the United States with that of most other countries.
The distribution of US cities are not very compatible with HSR networks. Generally speaking, HSR has an edge over airplane on shorter route (<600 miles), as they have natural 1-3 hours of time advantage in terms of door-to-door travel time. HSR lose most of its edge on longer route (especially >1,000 miles). Top 10 US metro areas (in terms of GDP) are located too far from each others.
2.2 cities within <600 miles on average
1. NY - 3 of 10 (#5 DC, #8 Boston, #9 Philadelphia)
2. LA - 1 of 10 (#4 SF)
3. Chicago - 2 of 10 (#5 DC, #10 Atlanta)
4. SF - 1 of 10 (#2 LA)
5. DC - 5 of 10 (#1 NY, #3 Chicago, #8 Boston, #9 Philadelphia, #10 Atlanta)
6. DFW - 1 of 10 (#7 Houston)
7. Houston - 1 of 10 (#6 DFW)
8. Boston - 3 of 10 (#1 NY, #5 DC, #9 Philadelphia)
9. Philadelphia - 3 of 10 (#1 NY, #5 DC, #8 Boston)
10. Atlanta - 2 of 10 (#3 Chicago, #5 DC)
Compare that to Chinese top 20 cities (instead of top 10, because even #20 Dongguan has 8m population, which is more than every US metro areas except NY, LA and Chicago). They got 9.45 cities within <600 miles on average.
1. Shanghai - 11 of 20 (Tianjin, Suzhou, Wuhan, Hangzhou, Nanjing, Qingdao, Wuxi, Changsha, Ningbo, Zhengzhou, Nantong)
2. Beijing - 5 of 20 (Tianjin, Nanjing, Qingdao, Zhengzhou, Nantong)
3. Shenzhen - 6 of 20 (Hong Kong, Guangzhou, Wuhan, Changsha, Foshan, Dongguan)
4. Hong Kong - 6 of 20 (Shenzhen, Guangzhou, Wuhan, Changsha, Foshan, Dongguan)
5. Guangzhou - 7 of 20 (Shenzhen, Hong Kong, Chongqing, Wuhan, Changsha, Foshan, Dongguan)
6. Chongqing - 6 of 20 (Guangzhou, Chengdu, Wuhan, Changsha, Foshan, Zhengzhou)
7. Tianjin - 8 of 20 (Shanghai, Beijing, Suzhou, Nanjing, Qingdao, Wuxi, Zhengzhou, Nantong)
8. Suzhou - 15 of 20 (Shanghai, Tianjin, Wuhan, Hangzhou, Nanjing, Qingdao, Wuhan, Hangzhou, Nanjing, Qingdao, Wuxi, Changsha, Ningbo, Zhengzhou, Nantong)
9. Chengdu - 3 of 20 (Chongqing, Wuhan, Changsha)
10.Wuhan - 16 of 20 (Shanghai, Shenzhen, Hong Kong, Guangzhou, Chongqing, Chengdu, Hangzhou, Nanjing, Qingdao, Wuxi, Changsha, Ningbo, Foshan, Zhengzhou, Nantong, Dongguan)
11.Hangzhou - 10 of 20 (Shanghai, Suzhou, Wuhan, Nanjing, Qingdao, Wuxi, Changsha, Ningbo, Zhengzhou, Nantong)
12.Nanjing - 12 of 20 (Shanghai, Beijing, Tianjin, Suzhou, Wuhan, Hangzhou, Qingdao, Wuxi, Changsha, Ningbo, Zhengzhou, Nantong)
13.Qingdao - 10 of 20 (Shanghai, Beijing, Tianjin, Suzhou, Hangzhou, Nanjing, Wuxi, Ningbo, Zhengzhou, Nantong)
14.Wuxi - 11 of 20 (Shanghai, Tianjin, Suzhou, Wuhan, Hangzhou, Nanjing, Qingdao, Changsha, Ningbo, Zhengzhou, Nantong)
15.Changsha - 15 of 20 (Shanghai, Shenzhen, Hong Kong, Guangzhou, Chongqing, Chengdu, Wuhan, Hangzhou, Nanjing, Wuxi, Ningbo, Foshan, Zhengzhou, Nantong, Dongguan)
16.Ningbo - 12 of 20 (Shanghai, Beijing, Tianjin, Suzhou, Wuhan, Hangzhou, Nanjing, Qingdao, Wuxi, Changsha, Zhengzhou, Nantong)
17.Foshan - 7 of 20 (Shenzhen, Guangzhou, Hong Kong, Chongqing, Wuhan, Changsha, Dongguan)
18.Zhengzhou - 13 of 20 (Shanghai, Beijing, Chongqing, Tianjin, Suzhou, Wuhan, Hangzhou, Nanjing, Qingdao, Wuxi, Changsha, Ningbo, Nantong)
19.Nantong - 11 of 20 (Shanghai, Beijing, Tianjin, Suzhou, Wuhan, Hangzhou, Qingdao, Wuxi, Changsha, Ningbo, Zhengzhou)
20.Dongguan - 5 of 20 (Hong Kong, Guangzhou, Wuhan, Changsha, Foshan)
If there is a breakthrough that allows 2-3 times faster average speed than regular HSR without huge construction/operating cost (unlike Maglev, Hyperloop, etc), than a web of intercity HSR lines may be realized in the US. Until then, airplanes would deny the HSR, not the US government.
For the public transit within the metro area, suburban living, highways and cars pretty much kill the public transit. Good public transit systems are not compatible with massive highways, parkings and suburban sprawl.
For the public transit within the metro area, suburban living, highways and cars pretty much kill the public transit. Good public transit systems are not compatible with massive highways, parkings and suburban sprawl.
On these forums, the consensus is:
Trains = good
Cars = bad
So, that is why people like to bash the United States. It is automatically bad. Never mind that most people in the world who can afford to own a car do own one. lol
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