U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Happy Mother`s Day to all Moms!
Go Back   City-Data Forum > World Forums > World
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
View Poll Results: Which group of cities is best?
NY, LA, Chicago, Washington, Toronto, SF 13 30.23%
London, Paris, Berlin, Madrid, Brussels, Moscow 30 69.77%
Voters: 43. You may not vote on this poll

Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 03-01-2021, 03:32 PM
 
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
5,939 posts, read 4,589,664 times
Reputation: 3757

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave New World View Post
Everyone knows that the US metro areas and US GMP are a joke.

Some of the US metro area sizes are just laughable, indeed the NYC metropolitan statistical area is around 22 times the size of London at 13,318 sq miles (34,494 km²) and with a population approaching 24 million and with 1.7 trillion in gdp.

The Chicago statistical metro area covers 10,856 sq mi (28,120 km2) with a population of 9,458,539.

The Los Angeles–Anaheim–Riverside combined statistical area covers 33,954 square miles (87,940 km2), with a population of 18.79 million (2017).

The San Jose-San Francisco-Oakland, CA Combined Statistical Area covers 10,191 sq mi (26,390 km2).

The Baltimore–Washington metropolitan area is a combined statistical area of 12,630.2 sq miles (32712 km2), and a population of around 9,764,315.

And so it goes on and on.....

For comparison the entire country of Israel is 8,522 square miles, Belgium is 11,787 square miles, Switzerland is 15,940 square miles, the Netherlands are 16,100 sq miles and Denmark is 16,639 sq miles. Whilst Wales in the UK is 8,005 sq mi, whilst the South East of England region is 7,373 sq mi and the East Anglia region is around 7,382 sq mi.

So you can make what you want of such US Metro GDP figures, although personally I just laugh at them, as they are pure nonsense.
Let's not get carried away now. It's not really that much of a joke when you're the 3rd most populated country on Earth. Those land areas are twice the size maybe three times where most of those population centers live.

2020 Urban Agglomerations

World Ranking - City-Population

9 Ciudad de México Mexico City, Mexico 24,500,000 CUA incl. Nezahualcóyotl, Ecatepec, Naucalpan
11 New York, NY United States of America 21,800,000 CUA incl. Bridgeport, Newark, New Haven
19 Los Angeles, United States of America 17,600,000 CUA incl. Anaheim, Riverside
20 Moskva- Moscow, Russia 17,400,000
25 London, Great Britain 14,800,000 CUA
33 Paris, France 11,400,000 Congl
41 Chicago, United States of America 9,650,000 CUA
47 Washington, DC United States of America 8,550,000 CUA incl. Baltimore
54 San Francisco, CA United States of America 7,750,000 CUA incl. San Jose
57 Toronto, Canada 7,650,000 CUA incl. Hamilton
67 Madrid,Spain 6,700,000CUA
105 Berlin,Germany 4,750,000 CUA
Area: 1,189 km² – Density: 3,995/km² – Change: +1.25%/year
199 Bruxelles-Brussels Belgium 2,725,000 CUA

2020 Demographia Rank Geography Urban Area:

City world rank/Population/Square Kilometers/People Per Square Kilometer:

9 Mexico Mexico City 20,996,000/2,386 /8,802
11 United States New York, NY-NJ-CT 20,870,000 /12,093/ 1,700
15 Russia Moscow 17,125,000/5,891/2,908
20 United States Los Angeles, CA 15,402,000/6,351/2,310
33 France Paris 11,020,000/2,509/4,247
34 United Kingdom London 10,979,000/1,739/5,632
41 United States Chicago, IL-IN-WI 9,014,000/7,006/1,288
49 United States Washington-Baltimore, DC-VA-MD 7,518,000/5,500/ 1,254
59 Canada Toronto, ON 6,871,000/2,334/2,757
67 United States San Francisco-San Jose, CA 6,425,000/2,872/2,051
120 Germany Berlin 3,972,000/1,368/2,905
262 Belgium Brussels 1,990,000/792/2,511

While most certainly, the European areas have more urban density. Those US cities don't nearly stretch as far as their CSA boundaries go to hold their population.

Last edited by the resident09; 03-01-2021 at 03:48 PM..
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-01-2021, 03:38 PM
 
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
5,939 posts, read 4,589,664 times
Reputation: 3757
Quote:
Originally Posted by North 42 View Post
DC is the obvious deadweight in this group! It’s such an insignificant backwater with no culture.
By the rankings though,

Washington DC is 6th out of the 12 cities, leaving Moscow, Madrid, Berlin, Brussels, and Toronto behind it. So it's dead set in the middle not the laggard here. DC's also a more wealthier region than each of those aforementioned, as well as Paris and London. And there's no possibility for the geo-political center of the US to be anything close to "insignificant".

New York (1)
London (2)
Paris (3)
Los Angeles (7)
Chicago (8)
Washington D.C. (10)
San Francisco (13)
Toronto (19)
Brussels (14)
Berlin (15)
Madrid (16)
Toronto (19)
Moscow (20)
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-01-2021, 05:51 PM
 
Location: Alexandria, Commonwealth of Virginia
2,217 posts, read 1,602,171 times
Reputation: 3025
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave New World View Post
I should imagine many countries have such areas, and some US statistical areas are much bigger than many countries and are not really reflective of a cities gdp.

New York-Newark, NY-NJ-CT-PA Combined Statistical Area is around 22 times the size of London at 13,318 sq miles (34,494 km²) and with a population approaching 24 million and with 1.7 trillion in gdp.

It's worth noting that if you were to add a similar area as the CSA to say London, which would involve adding the South East and East of England (East Anglia),which is largely rural with London, and you would then have a GDP of $1.35 Trillion (USD).

South East of England region is 7,373 sq mi and includes the Thames Valley, whilst the East Anglia region is around 7,382 sq mi.

The South East Region has a population of 9.175 million (2019), the East of England has a population of 6.235 million (2019), whilst London's population is 9,304,000 (2020). The gives a grand total of 24,714,000.

We can all play silly games based on a cities surrounding regions, and it should be noted the regions around London have better public transport connectivity than most of their US counterparts, and the same applies to Paris, Berlin, Madrid etc.

Greater London - Wikipedia

South East England - Wikipedia

East of England - Wikipedia
1. Even if you reduce the 10% "rural component" or what have you, American cities still dominate. The gap is too large to be explained by rural counties in the periphery. Once you finish hyperventilating this should become clear.

2. Even your numbers show that. Even with a fake population of 25 million, London is still far smaller as an economy with 6 million more people.

3. Even worse, these figures don't use US metro boundaries. They are OECD's standardized definition. So you're screaming at the clouds attacking the US for a urban boundary set by Europeans in Paris. Maybe do your research before making impassioned invectives. This isn't Speaker's Corner at Hyde Park.

4. Lastly, the London GDP of $779b is based on a metro population of 12,434,823. There's no way the outer 12 million produce the same amount of economic activity as the London under the OECD definition. So your $1.35 trillion numbers are also off.

5. According to the OECD, London metro (12,434,823) has a GDP per capita of $68,496. Which is why it does so poorly. It's a much poorer city than New York.

Last edited by manitopiaaa; 03-01-2021 at 06:09 PM..
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-01-2021, 06:17 PM
 
Location: Alexandria, Commonwealth of Virginia
2,217 posts, read 1,602,171 times
Reputation: 3025
Per the OECD (again, a European-based agency), here are the per capita counts as of 2018 (latest data available). These are constant numbers using 2015 as the base year, so differ slightly from the GDP counts posted previously.

And, again, the numbers are functional urban areas as defined by OECD using a standard definition: "The OECD, in cooperation with the EU, has developed a harmonised definition of functional urban areas (FUAs). Being composed of a city and its commuting zone, FUAs encompass the economic and functional extent of cities based on daily people’s movements (OECD, 2012). The definition of FUA aims at providing a functional/economic definition of cities and their area of influence, by maximising international comparability and overcoming the limitation of using purely administrative approaches."

EUROPE
  • Berlin: $45,311 (5,259,363 people)
  • Brussels: $74,574 (2,659,855 people)
  • London: $68,496 (12,434,823 people)
  • Madrid: $50,434 (6,791,667 people)
  • Moscow: An authoritarian state, so doesn't meet the eligibility to join OECD.
  • Paris: $70,751 (12,914,803 people)

NORTH AMERICA
  • Chicago: $68,836 (9,498,716 people)
  • Los Angeles: $65,368 (17,913,847 people)
  • New York: $85,565 (19,961,045 people)
  • San Francisco: $123,979 (6,728,591 people)
  • Toronto: $52,192 (7,363,757 people) [again, the deadweight of the group, with half the economic output of Washington]
  • Washington: $106,789 (9,115,152 people)

The order in terms of per capita output goes: (1) San Francisco, (2) Washington, (3) New York, (4) Paris, (5) Brussels, (6) Chicago, (7) London, (8) Los Angeles, (9) Toronto, (10) Madrid, (11) Berlin, (12) Moscow.

4 of the Top 6 are North American. 4 of the Bottom 6 are European. Toronto is the poorest North American city of the 6. Paris is the richest European city of the 6. Those are the numbers. Those are the facts.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-01-2021, 06:29 PM
 
Location: Alexandria, Commonwealth of Virginia
2,217 posts, read 1,602,171 times
Reputation: 3025
Quote:
Originally Posted by the resident09 View Post
By the rankings though,

Washington DC is 6th out of the 12 cities, leaving Moscow, Madrid, Berlin, Brussels, and Toronto behind it. So it's dead set in the middle not the laggard here. DC's also a more wealthier region than each of those aforementioned, as well as Paris and London. And there's no possibility for the geo-political center of the US to be anything close to "insignificant".

New York (1)
London (2)
Paris (3)
Los Angeles (7)
Chicago (8)
Washington D.C. (10)
San Francisco (13)
Toronto (19)
Brussels (14)
Berlin (15)
Madrid (16)
Toronto (19)
Moscow (20)
He's being petty because he lives in a metro that can barely crack $50,000 GDP per capita, yet pretends to be as rich as Dubai. He's mad somebody brought it up Toronto's relative poverty and now wants to attack me because I live in Washington. I won't take the bait.

If we look at the data though, the numbers are simple: Toronto's GDP is $358 billion with 7,363,757 people. To put things in perspective, Washington, D.C. (the city proper, with 705,749 people) has a GDP of $200.3 billion, half of Toronto's entire metro GDP with 1/10th the population.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-01-2021, 06:33 PM
 
Location: Alexandria, Commonwealth of Virginia
2,217 posts, read 1,602,171 times
Reputation: 3025
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
So would you argue that Madrid the laggard in the European list?
Yes I would. It's the laggard of the European list, though it's personally my favorite European city on the list as well (I even lived there for 6 months).
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-01-2021, 06:40 PM
 
Location: Alexandria, Commonwealth of Virginia
2,217 posts, read 1,602,171 times
Reputation: 3025
Quote:
Originally Posted by the resident09 View Post
True, although this doesn't support your point of Mexico City or Montreal replacing Toronto well here.
A city to me has to have one of three things. The more the better:
1. Political Power
2. Economic Power
3. Cultural Power


POLITICAL POWER

In terms of political power, Mexico City is the capital of a G-20 country of 130 million people and is the largest Hispanic country in the world (Spanish being the main language for 500 million people). It's a regional power in Latin America (second only to Brazil).

Toronto is capital of a province of 15 million people and that's about it for political power. Toronto doesn't have any political influence in North America (and Ottawa, the actual capital, cannot project political power in the Americas because the U.S. and geography blunts that).

Winner: Mexico City

ECONOMIC POWER

Mexico City has a smaller economy than Toronto by $100 billion.

Winner: Toronto

CULTURAL POWER

Mexico City TV, movies, music, arts and pop culture are omnipresent throughout much of Latin America. I have a Romanian friend who grew up on Mexican telenovelas. From a cultural diffusion measure, Mexico City has far more cultural worth than Toronto, whose cultural 'prowess' is serving as a fake New York for cheap film studios and Drake music videos.

Toronto doesn't even have much cultural pull in the U.S. How many Americans think about Toronto on a daily basis? Mexico City is the biggest cultural exporter for a region of 500 million people. Toronto lives in the shadow of far more influential cities in its cultural grouping: London, Los Angeles, New York, and San Francisco are scales more important in shaping Anglo culture.

So how can a city be a cultural juggernaut when its cultural output extends only as far as the national borders of a country of 38 million people? It can't.

Winner: Mexico City

---

Taken together, Mexico City's political and cultural advantages outweigh Toronto having a slightly bigger economy (even though both are laggards by American standards).
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-02-2021, 05:11 AM
 
Location: Great Britain
17,005 posts, read 6,272,599 times
Reputation: 11061
Quote:
Originally Posted by manitopiaaa View Post
1. Even if you reduce the 10% "rural component" or what have you, American cities still dominate. The gap is too large to be explained by rural counties in the periphery. Once you finish hyperventilating this should become clear.

2. Even your numbers show that. Even with a fake population of 25 million, London is still far smaller as an economy with 6 million more people.

3. Even worse, these figures don't use US metro boundaries. They are OECD's standardized definition. So you're screaming at the clouds attacking the US for a urban boundary set by Europeans in Paris. Maybe do your research before making impassioned invectives. This isn't Speaker's Corner at Hyde Park.

4. Lastly, the London GDP of $779b is based on a metro population of 12,434,823. There's no way the outer 12 million produce the same amount of economic activity as the London under the OECD definition. So your $1.35 trillion numbers are also off.

5. According to the OECD, London metro (12,434,823) has a GDP per capita of $68,496. Which is why it does so poorly. It's a much poorer city than New York.
What a load of utter nonsense.

These vast US metro areas and mega regions often have little to do with the cities, however in London's case at least you can state that it has a very good public transport system linking the regions around it, which is more can be said for many of the vast CSA Metro areas in the US.

Incidentally, no one really cares about GDP rates, however when US cities try to use metro areas such as the CSA which are the size of entire European countries to inflate their GDP levels, things starts to descent in to the realms of nonsense and stupidity.

Btw if you want massive rates of GDP. simply become a tax haven.

Tax Haven Cash Rising, Now Equal To At Least 10% Of World GDP - Forbes

Tax havens make GDP screwy

In terms of London train links and station in relation to the South East and East Anglia, you can find details here -

London and South East Rail Services Map

Network Map - Greater Anglia

Last edited by Brave New World; 03-02-2021 at 06:13 AM..
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-02-2021, 03:27 PM
 
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
5,939 posts, read 4,589,664 times
Reputation: 3757
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave New World View Post
What a load of utter nonsense.

These vast US metro areas and mega regions often have little to do with the cities, however in London's case at least you can state that it has a very good public transport system linking the regions around it, which is more can be said for many of the vast CSA Metro areas in the US.

Incidentally, no one really cares about GDP rates, however when US cities try to use metro areas such as the CSA which are the size of entire European countries to inflate their GDP levels, things starts to descent in to the realms of nonsense and stupidity.

Btw if you want massive rates of GDP. simply become a tax haven.

Tax Haven Cash Rising, Now Equal To At Least 10% Of World GDP - Forbes

Tax havens make GDP screwy

In terms of London train links and station in relation to the South East and East Anglia, you can find details here -

London and South East Rail Services Map

Network Map - Greater Anglia
You say the "vast majority" of US CSA's, but what really needs to be focused on is the vast majority of the US primary or legacy cities and their CSA's, SF, Boston, New York, Chicago, Washington DC, and Los Angeles. Now London's transit is still more impressive than those, but each have huge populations, with huge economies to the likes of which most European cities cannot match.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-03-2021, 11:58 AM
 
Location: San Francisco Bay Area, California
16,759 posts, read 17,619,552 times
Reputation: 15952
The cities in Europe are.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > World Forums > World

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2021, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top